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Ganondorf (SSB4)

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This article is about Ganondorf's appearance in Super Smash Bros. 4. For the character in other contexts, see Ganondorf.
Ganondorf
in Super Smash Bros. 4
Ganondorf SSB4.png
ZeldaSymbol.svg
Universe The Legend of Zelda
Other playable appearances in Melee
in Brawl

Availability Unlockable (3DS)
Starter (Wii U)
Final Smash Beast Ganon
Ganondorf's stock icon in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U.

Ganondorf (ガノンドロフ, Ganondorf) was officialy revealed as a playable character in Super Smash Bros. 4 on October 15th, 2014, alongside R.O.B.. Prior to this, Ganondorf was leaked via leaked videos from footage used by ESRB to rate the game, accidentally shown in an official video, where he appeared outside the boundaries of the screen while Pikachu taunted, before the trailer was replaced with a nearly-identical video which does not include Ganondorf, and he was also shown in Twitch.tv streams before being unveiled, and on October 10th 2014, Sakurai mentioned Ganondorf in the Pic of the day, which means he was leaked four times (twice by official material) prior to his official announcement.

How to unlock

  • Play 80 VS Matches.
  • Clear Classic Mode as Link or Zelda on difficulty 5.0 or higher.

Ganondorf must then be defeated in Gerudo Valley.

Ganondorf does not have to be unlocked on the Wii U version.

Attributes

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Ganondorf is a tall, heavy character that sacrifices speed for power. His aerial game has significantly improved from Brawl as all of his aerials dish out more knockback, which is evident with back aerial, and Ganondorf's down aerial is more lethal than ever if it connects, as it has a sourspot on his upper body that will allow him to send opponents flying horizontally, with heavy knockback. Up aerial is his fastest aerial attack in his arsenal, and due to this it is his best aerial in many situations.

Ganondorf is among the best edge guarders in the game, with his aerials not only sending opponents away, but also guaranteeing most of them to be KO'd with a hit to send them back. Ganondorf may also use his up tilt attack against impromptu recoveries from getting up, or on certain characters like Ike or Fox, who may recover horizontally, a perfectly timed up smash will do the trick.

He has four attacks capable of breaking shields on impact: his up tilt's sweetspot, fully charged forward smash, and all versions of Warlock Blade's sweetspot tip, which will instantly destroy them; and then his reverse Warlock Punch and reverse Warlock Blade's sourspot will also bring shields down to their last bar of health, but thanks to the attacks' sheer shieldstun power, the shields are guaranteed to break. As well, he is the best character to use against breaking shields, as most of his attacks, notably non-reversed Warlock Punch, uncharged forward smash, and aerial Wizard's Foot, will do significant shield damage upon impact, making it unsafe to overuse shields against him, especially with hand-to-hand combatants.

Despite alleviation of Ganondorf's significant issues that he had in Brawl (barring recovery, which is still one of the worst), he still possesses most of the major flaws he had from that game, such as his subpar range (especially his slow grab) and a small shield for a character of his size. He also retains his susceptibility to combos and juggling due to his tall size and heavy weight and is still painfully easy to punish and edge-guard due to his slow and laggy moves. Dark Dive remains infamously the worst special move in Ganondorf's arsenal as well as in Smash 4, with its already glaring flaws aggravated thanks to the removal of grab armor, making it even easier to intercept.

With customs on, Ganondorf gets a good number of his faults addressed. Most notably, with the Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists customs, Ganondorf's recovery goes from one of the worst to one of the best recoveries in the game. Although Wizard's Dropkick is weaker than Wizard's Foot and cannot meteor smash, its aerial version moves Ganondorf a significant horizontal distance that is faster and further than Flame Choke and does not cause helplessness, and both aerial and grounded versions can also allow Ganondorf to go above projectiles while simultaneously attacking, giving Ganondorf an effective anti-projectile option. Dark Fists also allows Ganondorf to move more horizontally as well, giving him a better reach toward the edge, and thanks to its super armor start-up frames, he is protected from edge-guarders. Additionally' Dark Fists' armor will also allow him to tank hits while comboing into opponents and KO them at early damages, if given the opportunity, also making its end very risky to intercept while at high percentages. Wizard's Assault is much faster and does not slow down, while its aerial version moves Ganondorf straight downward, though it has longer start-up and its damage is between Wizard's Foot and Dropkick. Dark Vault is made purely for his recovery, as it has more vertical reach at the expense of horizontal reach and less chances to grab, making it much easier to edge-guard than Dark Fists. Flame Chain is not a grab but a multi-hitting attack that travels slightly further than Flame Choke and can move Ganondorf through shields. Flame Wave's grab knocks opponents high into the air and allows potential KOs but sacrifices comboing, speed, and reach, and thus recovery. While Warlock Blade and Warlock Thrust are much weaker than Warlock Punch, the Blade has much higher shield damage, and comes out much faster than Punch/Blade; also, Warlock Thrust is arguably useless due to the sheer decrease in damage and knockback, the high ending lag, and its lack of super armor, though it has great follow-up abilities for a stage spike.

Changes from Brawl

Given that Ganondorf was infamously the worst character in Brawl, he has received many buffs, particularly in damage, knockback, and slightly in ending lag, with comparatively few nerfs. Ganondorf also significantly benefits from the general changes of Smash 4, in particular the general nerf of campable projectiles, the removal of chain grabs, and the introduction of edge-stealing, with the latter both allowing Ganondorf to edge-hog more effectively and limiting his opponents' ability to do the same. He also benefits largely from the rage mechanic due to his high knockback.

His combo ability and grab game, while still being mediocre, are slightly better due to increased combo ability with his down and up throws. Ganonciding is much more effective than it was in Brawl, now giving Ganondorf the win if his opponent is on their last stock, but is slightly more difficult to pull off due to the removal of Flame Choke's grab armor, making the grab interruptible.

He is still a semi-clone of Captain Falcon with no new decloning in his default moveset, although Dark Dive was given a new animation. However, he was given completely different custom options in his cloned special moves, giving him more unique special attacks.

Aesthetics

  • Change Ganondorf once again appears as his Twilight Princess incarnation, but he now sports both his glowing chest wound from that game as well as a more tattered cape. Like other characters, his overall color scheme is also noticeably brighter to reflect the more vibrant aesthetics in SSB4.
  • Change Ganondorf's darkness attacks produce more saturated visual effects.

Attributes

  • Buff Ganondorf is slightly heavier than he was in Brawl, having been increased from 109 to 112.
  • Buff Ganondorf dashes slightly faster, having been increased from 1.16 to 1.218.
  • Nerf Ganondorf's air speed was reduced from 0.846 to 0.79.

Ground attacks

  • Buff Neutral attack's sweetspot deals 1% more damage.
  • Nerf Neutral attack's sourspot deals 1% less damage.
  • Nerf Dash attack deals 1% less damage with slightly reduced knockback, making it a bit less effective at KOing (though it can still reliably KO under 150%).
  • Buff Combined with the previous point, the removal of hitstun cancelling gives the dash attack's sourspot newfound ability as a combo starter.
  • Buff Down tilt deals 1% more damage with slightly increased knockback.
  • Buff Up tilt deals 1% more damage with increased knockback. Additionally, shields no longer take reduced damage from attacks in Smash 4 which drastically benefits this move, allowing the sweetspot to instantly shatter even full shields. The changes in ledge mechanics also makes this move much easier to trap opponents with.
  • Buff Forward smash has slightly increased base knockback.
  • Nerf Ganondorf no longer lunges farther when forward smash is pivoted, decreasing its reach.
  • Buff Up smash is much stronger, with both the sour and sweetspots dealing 2% more damage.
  • Buff Both kicks of down smash deals 1% extra damage with slightly increased knockback.

Aerial attacks

  • Buff Neutral aerial's first hit deals 1% extra damage with 2% more for the second. In addition, it has less landing lag.
  • Buff Forward aerial has decreased landing lag. The sweetspot additionally has a larger hitbox which makes it slightly disjointed.
  • Change Forward aerial's base knockback and knockback scaling are now moderately low and high, respectively. This makes it a bit less effective at KOing on ledges, but makes the move KO more reliably from center and on heavier characters.
  • Buff Back aerial deals 1% more damage and has increased base knockback and knockback scaling. It also has less landing lag.
  • Buff Up aerial has less landing lag.
  • Nerf Down aerial was significantly weakened, dealing 3% less damage with decreased base knockback (though it's still by far the most powerful meteor smash and aerial attack, and can still KO grounded opponents around 100% due to its very high knockback scaling). It can no longer autocancel in a short hop, removing its easy combo starting abilities.
  • Buff Down aerial has slightly less landing lag. The sourspot on his upper body now has superb horizontal knockback, making it useful to edge-guard opponents and securing decisive KOs. Additionally, the move significantly benefits from the new frame cancel, which can allow it to start combos even more effectively than it did in previous games if the player is frame-precise with the move.

Grabs and throws

  • Buff Ganondorf's pummel deals 1% more damage.
  • Buff Forward, up, and down throws have less ending lag.
  • Buff Both Ganondorf's up and down throws have decreased knockback scaling, increasing Ganondorf's capability to follow them up at from zero to mid percentage.

Special moves

  • Buff Warlock Punch is even more powerful when reversed, dealing 4% more damage and being able to KO lighter characters under 10% near the ledge. It also now has super armor during its start-up, though only if initiated on the ground, and it loses its armor when Ganondorf punches or if Ganondorf reverses it.
  • Nerf A non-reversed Warlock Punch is weaker, dealing 2% less damage, and being survivable to around 50%.
  • Buff Both grounded and aerial versions of Flame Choke deal 3% more damage. When Ganoncided with, the opponent is now always KO'd before Ganondorf, instead of at the same time or after, meaning Ganondorf will always win if he lands a Ganoncide on the opponent's last stock.
  • Nerf The grounded version of Flame Choke can now be teched, though Ganondorf still has significant frame advantage if the opponent techs, giving him followups if he reads the tech. The removal of grab armor makes it easier to intercept (as trade blows will interrupt the grab) and thus Ganonciding slightly more difficult to pull off (and thus less of a deterrent against edge-guarding Ganondorf).
  • Change Aerial Flame Choke carries Ganondorf and his opponent airborne a bit before the descent.
  • Buff Opponents can no longer attack Ganondorf as he releases them from Dark Dive.
  • Nerf The removal of grab armor removes the minimal protection Dark Dive provided, which when combined with the previous point about Flame Choke, makes Ganondorf overall even easier to edge-guard offstage than it was in Brawl.
  • Change Dark Dive now has a altered animation with one hand as opposed to two, and it produces more spectacular visual effects, with a noticeably larger finishing explosion.
  • Buff Aerial Wizard's Foot is interruptible much sooner, giving Ganondorf much greater leniency to successfully recover after using it offstage when edge-guarding, and when using it to mix-up recovery. This also allows it to be used over ground from not as high up without going into its laggy landing animation.
  • Nerf Ganondorf can no longer perform the Flight of Ganon.
  • Nerf Beast Ganon's knockback has been reduced, no longer being a one-hit KO.

Moveset

  Name Damage Description
Neutral attack Impact Palm; 10% (hand), 7% (arm), 4% (body) Leans in with a palm strike. Ganondorf's fastest attack, with decent range and knockback.
Forward tilt Armor Crusher 13% (foot), 12% (leg) Leans back while forcefully thrusting one leg forward. Fairly quick start-up, with great knockback at a semi-spike trajectory. A powerful edgeguarding move against characters with little horizontal recovery.
Up tilt Volcanic Solleret 28% (leg), 20%/18% (explosion) Ganondorf lifts his leg up then holds it in place until smashing it down in an explosion. Has vacuum properties. Incredibly powerful, with the sweetspot being able to instantly shatter full shields and KO at low percentages when near the ledge, but has laughable startup lag making it a high risk high reward move. Due to this, it rarely sees use in higher levels of play making it useful for mindgames as it can catch the opponent off guard. It is one of Ganondorf's best edgeguard attacks if used correctly.
Down tilt Shin Breaker 13% Kneels on one leg and thrusts the other leg forward. Good start-up, range and power with vertical knockback.
Dash attack Iron Tackle 14% (clean), 10% (late) Charges at the opponent and rams into them. Ganondorf gains a quick speed boost during the move. Low base knockback, but a fairly high knockback scaling, being able to KO at very high percentages.
Forward smash Nightmare Lunge; 24% Thrusts his elbow forward, dealing darkness damage on contact. Relatively slow start-up and high cool down, but its extreme knockback is capable of KO'ing under 100%. Hitting closer to Ganondorf deals slightly higher knockback, but the same damage. Can be angled.
Up smash Banishing Boot 24% (leg), 21% (body) Forcefully swings his leg up. Has some start-up but surprisingly little cool down because of its interruptibility. Extremely powerful when used against aerial opponents, capable of KO'ing under 100%. Has small hitbox directly in front of him if he is too far away for the kick to hit.
Down smash Greave Whiplash 6% (hit 1), 15%/13% (hit 2) Kicks his leg in front and then behind him. The first kick has low knockback to naturally combo into the second kick, which has the most damage and knockback. Ganondorf's weakest smash attack, but can be used to punish a roll.
Neutral aerial Deadly Keese 12% (hit 1 clean), 7% (hit 1 late), 9% (hit 2 clean), 5% (hit 2 late) Two quick mid-air kicks. The first hit deals the most damage and knockback, making it impractical to combo into the second hit above extremely low percent. Some landing lag if not used in a full hop.
Forward aerial Shade Fist 17% (fist), 16% (arm) An overhead punch in a downwards arc. Very powerful with decent start-up. Suffers from high landing lag even when used with a full hop.
Back aerial Hidden Gauntlet 17% (fist), 16% (arm) A back-handed punch. Relatively fast start-up with power that slightly surpasses even his forward aerial. Has little cool down with decent landing lag. While it auto cancels in a short hop, its high vertical hitbox makes it unable to hit most grounded opponents.
Up aerial Sinister Rave 13%/12% (clean), 12%/10% (mid), 8%/6% (late) An overhead flip kick, covering a large arc above him. Fast start-up, good coverage with great power. Deals more damage and knockback when it hits closer to Ganondorf. The last few frames of this attack is a weak semi-spike with extremely low horizontal knockback. Has little cool down with decent landing lag, and can auto cancel into a short hop.
Down aerial Doom Drop 19% (legs), 17% (body) Stomps his legs downward, dealing electric damage. The move is an extremely powerful meteor smash if hit with the lower half of his body. There is a sour spot on his shoulder that hits horizontally with less damage, but is still extremely powerful (stronger than his forward and back aerial at higher percentages). Has little cool down, but high landing lag unless used with a full hop. All hitboxes have transcendent priority.
Grab A short ranged grab. Pivot grab has better range but suffers from cool down.
Pummel Armored Knee 3% Knees the opponent. A moderately slow pummel.
Forward throw Gut Punch 5% (hit 1), 8% (throw) Lifts his opponent up, then punches them in the midsection. High damage for a throw with good knockback. Good for setting up a meteor smash down aerial.
Back throw Cruel Mule Kick 5% (hit 1), 5% (throw) Lifts his opponent behind him and kicks them. Decent knockback, sets up an edgeguard well. Moderate ending lag severely decreases ground combo potential.
Up throw Gerudo Spire 4% (hit 1), 3% (throw) Holds opponent above him, then punches them upwards. High base knockback, but low scaling. Not good at followups, but it can be used as a DI mixups, mindgames, and start juggles against characters who has hard time dealing with juggles.
Down throw Dirt Nap 7% Throws his opponent violently on the ground. A weak throw with very low knockback scaling, making it useful for setting up into dash attack, neutral air, up air, or Wizard's Foot at zero to mid percentages.
Floor attack (front) 7% Spins his left foot around him on both sides in a breakdance like fashion.
Floor attack (back) 7% Swings his right foot over his head as he gets up.
Floor attack (trip) 5% Spins around to kick those who are near.
Edge attack 8% Gets up with a horizontal left back hand to the opponent.
Neutral special Default Warlock Punch 30% (ground), 37% (ground reverse), 38% (air), 40% (air reverse) Winds up a large amount of darkness and releases it all in a a powerful forward backfist. A player can pull off a 180° punch by turning in the opposite direction during the charging period, however this increases the moves wind up duration. It receives a significant damage bonus if used in the air or turned 180°, and these bonuses do stack, so a reverse aerial Warlock Punch is powerful enough to OHKO characters near the ledge. Has super armor until just before the punch, unless used in the air or reversed.
Custom 1 Warlock Blade 22%/18% (ground), 24%/20% (ground reverse), 24%/20% (air), 26%/22% (air reverse) Ganondorf pulls out his sword and thrusts it forwards. Deals less damage overall than Warlock Punch when sourspotted, but has greater range, faster startup, and a powerful sweetspot at the tip of the sword. Has super armor until just before the stab, unless used in the air or reversed. Deals greatly increased shield damage, with the sweetspot being able to instantly shatter a full shield. All hitboxes have transcendent priority.
Custom 2 Warlock Thrust 16%/9% (normal), 19%/12% (reverse) A faster punch that deals explosive damage, though the opponent must be very close to get the full extent of the damage. Suffers from extreme ending lag.
Side special Default Flame Choke 12% (ground throw), 15% (air throw), 4% (release) Boosts forward with his hand extended out. Upon contact he grabs the opponent's neck and attacks them with a pulse of darkness before dropping them onto the ground (though an opponent can tech the hit to avoid guaranteed follow-ups). In the air, Ganondorf grabs onto and descends holding the opponent before slamming them into the ground, or to the lower blast line in a suicide KO if used off-stage. This works as a grab move, and as such works through shields and counters. Also can be used for short horizontal recovery, as it grabs onto the ledge.
Custom 1 Flame Wave 8% (ground hit 1), 10% (air hit 1), 10% (throw), 4% (release) Boosts forward with his hand extended out. Upon contact, he blasts them into the air after grabbing them, dealing two hits, with the second having vertical knockback.
Custom 2 Flame Chain 1.2% (loop hits), 5% (last hit) Boosts forward with his hand extended out. Upon contact, he strikes them with a series of attacks, leading up to a decent knockback finish. It also provides very long range, and even a bit of traction on the ground, but cannot grab. Hits 10 times on ground, but 7 times in the air.
Up special Default Dark Dive 1% (hits 1-4), 8% (throw), 7% (uppercut), 6% (release) Ganondorf latches onto an opponent and unleashes electricity onto them before launching them with an explosion. Covers a very small amount of horizontal distance, but a decent amount of vertical making it a subpar recovery. If he successfully lands this move against an opponent, he doesn't fall helpless and can use it again. Ganondorf will perform an uppercut with weak knockback and darkness properties if this move misses an opponent.
Custom 1 Dark Fists 6% (hit 1), 11% (hit 2) Ganondorf launches himself into the air with a rising fist, followed by another uppercut at the height of his jump. He cannot grab opponents with this move, but he can chain the two uppercuts into each other, dealing very high knockback at moderate damages. It is considered the best recovery move due to its somewhat slow start-up allowing for better horizontal reach, and higher vertical distance. Has super armor on startup.
Custom 2 Dark Vault 4% (throw), 6% (release) Ganondorf travels much higher, but can only grab opponents at the very beginning or end of the move. It deals very poor knockback, and cannot move far once activated. However, he jumps much, much higher than before.
Down special Default Wizard's Foot 12%/10% (ground), 15%/14% (air), 8% (landing) Surrounded by darkness, Ganondorf launches himself while extending his leg out, dealing decent damage and knockback (but lots of cool down). In the air, Ganondorf launches diagonally downwards while extending his leg out below him. A powerful meteor smash during start-up, with a late hit sending opponents vertically instead (though it is still very powerful, capable of killing on the stage at standard kill percents, and as low as 60% if it connects against an aerial opponent). A small shockwave is formed around Ganondorf when he lands on the ground, which has small amount of knockback. Slows down significantly on impact with anything, has a lot of landing lag, and is extremely risky to use off stage.
Custom 1 Wizard's Dropkick 9%/7% (ground), 11%/8%/9%/7% (air), 6% (landing) Ganondorf jumps into the air before performing the kick. It has decent knockback, and is especially great to use as a recovery tool in the air, due to its great horizontal distance. Aerial version is a kill move near the ledge or off the stage. Can be used both to come back to the stage, and to avoid juggles if launched. Is a true combo out of Down Throw until mid-high percent. A downside is that it doesn't meteor, and has significantly reduced vertical kill power, though it can more safely be used for edge guarding. Very little cool down if used on the ground.
Custom 2 Wizard's Assault 10%/9% (ground), 14%/12% (air), 6% (landing) Ganondorf shoots forwards with a faster kick that goes through opponents and travels straight down when used in the air, with the grounded attack sending opponents behind Ganondorf. It has a slower start-up, but does not slow down on impact, and is very dangerous if used in the air. It can meteor.
Final Smash Beast Ganon 10%/5% (appearance), 10% (paralyze), 40%/30% (charge) Ganondorf becomes his beast form and rams into the opponent. Opponents too close upon initiation are buried, while those otherwise in front will be paralyzed. Usually a one-hit KO.

Taunts

  • Up: Floats in the air, curls into a ball, and spins. He then opens up from his curled position and poses while laughing maniacally. (Same as in Brawl)
  • Side: Punches his hands together in a threatening pose and scoffs.
  • Down: Takes his sword out from which dark energy pulses, looks at it, then puts it away.

On-Screen Appearance

Emerges from a portal of dark magic.

Victory Fanfare

A flourished remix directly from Brawl. It is a remix of the tune that will play when Link obtained a Triforce Piece in The Legend of Zelda for the Nintendo Entertainment System. It is shared with Link, Zelda, Sheik, and Toon Link.

Trophies

Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS trophy descriptions

Ganondorf's regular trophy can be obtained by completing Classic Mode and his alternative trophy can be obtained by completing All-Star mode.

Ganondorf
NA: The King of Evil that awaits Link at the end of most of his adventures. Ganondorf possesses the Triforce of Power. In Smash Bros., he makes up for his low speed with devastating power. The strength of his blows can knock back most opponents. Get close with a dash attack, and pummel your foes!
PAL: The King of Evil is Link's arch-nemesis in most games in the Legend of Zelda series. With the Triforce of Power at his disposal, he's a fearsome opponent. In this game, his mighty attacks have so much impact, they easily make up for his slow speed, and his launching ability is extra impressive! Rush in when the enemy's open and strike hard.
Ganondorf (Alt.)
NA: Being the powerhouse that he is, the King of Evil is a great choice for free-for-alls. His Warlock Punch delivers a thunderous, dark-energy-fueled blow from his left hand. Unfortunately, left-handed dark-energy-fueled blows take some time to charge. You can turn to face someone as they cowardly try to hit you from behind.
PAL: Being the powerhouse that he is, the King of Evil is a great choice for free-for-alls. His Warlock Punch focuses dark energy into his left hand to deliver a thunderous back-hander. Unfortunately, focusing all that energy takes time. If someone sneaks behind you just as you start the move, quickly try to turn around.

Update history

Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS 1.0.4

  • Buff Landing lag on all aerial attacks has been reduced, with neutral aerial having a moderate decrease while the rest of his aerials had a slight decrease.
  • Buff Aerial Flame Choke can no longer be teched, restoring the move's offensive useability.

Super Smash Bros. 4 1.0.6

  • Buff Neutral attack deals 1% more damage (6% → 7%).
  • Buff Neutral attack's sweetspot deals 2% more damage (8% → 10%).
  • Buff Down, up and forward throws end lag decreased.

Alternate costumes

Ganondorf Palette (SSB4).png
GanondorfHeadSSB4-3.png GanondorfHeadWhiteSSB4-3.png GanondorfHeadPurpleSSB4-3.png GanondorfHeadGreenSSB4-3.png GanondorfHeadRedSSB4-3.png GanondorfHeadYellowSSB4-3.png GanondorfHeadGreySSB4-3.png GanondorfHeadBlueSSB4-3.png

Gallery

Trivia

  • In previous Super Smash Bros. appearances, Ganondorf has a sword in some aesthetic capacity, whether that be in his artwork or one of his victory poses in Super Smash Bros. Melee, or in one of his taunts in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Super Smash Bros. 4 is the first entry in the series to have Ganondorf actually utilize his sword, albeit in a custom neutral special move.
  • Ganondorf's mouth does not open all the way, leaving small marks at the sides of his mouth that remain still.
  • Ganondorf is the character with the most grab moves in the game, as both his side special and up special count as grabs and cannot be countered or shielded.
  • Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS is the first game where Ganondorf is unlocked on a stage other than Final Destination.
  • Ganondorf's cape has cuts in it, much like in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess after receiving damage from battle. However, despite other characters like Little Mac and Meta Knight showing battle damage, Ganondorf's cape is torn from the start.