User:Toomai/On the order of things

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It has recently occurred to me that some might see me as too biased towards my preferred order of listing things such as characters. So, I would like to provide some explanation as to how I developed my preferred order and why I believe it's superior to other possible orders.

I'll throw in a few updates for SSB4 things, but probably not a lot until everything's out.

Axioms

These are the basic principles I want the final order to adhere to, roughly in order of importance. If you disagree with these, then you probably won't agree with the order, and either one of us trying to argue is futile. Note that "keep characters of the same universe together" could be considered an axiom 0; I think it's too obvious to list.

  1. The relative order of two characters should not change between games.
  2. Strongly-related universes and characters should be grouped together.
  3. Third-party universes should always go last.
  4. Universes of starter characters should come before those of unlockable characters.
  5. Universes should go in the order first established in SSB64: series release date.
  6. Characters should be ordered such that the good guys come before the bad guys, and that the most important ones come first in those orders.
  7. Characters should be ordered so that the SSB64 guys come before the Melee guys (and so on).
  8. Characters should be listed in the order "starter", "easy to unlock", "hard to unlock".

Development

This is the basic thought process traversed upon creating the order.

Series

1. Order the universes of the Original 8 as presented in SSB64.

File:MarioSymbol.png File:DKSymbol.png File:ZeldaSymbol.png File:MetroidSymbol.png File:YoshiSymbol.png File:KirbySymbol.png File:StarFoxSymbol.png File:PokemonSymbol.png

2. Move the Yoshi subuniverse to between Mario and DK. The Yoshi series is more connected to the Mario series than the DK series is.

File:MarioSymbol.png File:YoshiSymbol.png File:DKSymbol.png File:ZeldaSymbol.png File:MetroidSymbol.png File:KirbySymbol.png File:StarFoxSymbol.png File:PokemonSymbol.png

3. Add in the unlockable characters' universes.

File:MarioSymbol.png File:YoshiSymbol.png File:DKSymbol.png File:ZeldaSymbol.png File:MetroidSymbol.png File:KirbySymbol.png File:StarFoxSymbol.png File:PokemonSymbol.png File:FZeroSymbol.png File:EarthboundSymbol.png

4. Add the universes introduced in Melee. Ice Climber goes first as it's represented by a starter character, while Game & Watch is after Fire Emblem because it's represented by a character that is almost certain to be the last unlocked (and the connotation that he's the surprise out-of-nowhere character).

File:MarioSymbol.png File:YoshiSymbol.png File:DKSymbol.png File:ZeldaSymbol.png File:MetroidSymbol.png File:KirbySymbol.png File:StarFoxSymbol.png File:PokemonSymbol.png File:FZeroSymbol.png File:EarthboundSymbol.png File:IceClimbersSymbol.png File:FireEmblemSymbol.png File:Game&WatchSymbol.png

5. Add the universes introduced in Brawl. Kid Icarus and Pikmin go first in that order for being starters and for Kid Icarus being older. Wario goes between Yoshi and DK: Wario is less connected to the Mario series than Yoshi, but more connected than DK.

File:MarioSymbol.png File:YoshiSymbol.png File:WarioSymbol.png File:DKSymbol.png File:ZeldaSymbol.png File:MetroidSymbol.png File:KirbySymbol.png File:StarFoxSymbol.png File:PokemonSymbol.png File:FZeroSymbol.png File:EarthboundSymbol.png File:IceClimbersSymbol.png File:FireEmblemSymbol.png File:Game&WatchSymbol.png File:KidIcarusSymbol.png File:PikminSymbol.png File:ROBSymbol.png

6. Add the SSB4 universes, again ordered by first game release date. (This kinda implies that Assist Trophy unvierses comes before stage universes though. Given that stages get series symbols but ATs don't, that's...not optimal.)

File:MarioSymbol.png File:YoshiSymbol.png File:WarioSymbol.png File:DKSymbol.png File:ZeldaSymbol.png File:MetroidSymbol.png File:KirbySymbol.png File:StarFoxSymbol.png File:PokemonSymbol.png File:FZeroSymbol.png File:EarthboundSymbol.png File:IceClimbersSymbol.png File:FireEmblemSymbol.png File:Game&WatchSymbol.png File:KidIcarusSymbol.png File:PikminSymbol.png File:ROBSymbol.png File:PunchOutSymbol.png File:AnimalCrossingSymbol.png File:WiiFitSymbol.png

7. Add the third-party universes. Sonic goes before Metal Gear because of the stronger Nintendo connection (more games on Nintendo systems in general, Mario sports crossovers).

File:MarioSymbol.png File:YoshiSymbol.png File:WarioSymbol.png File:DKSymbol.png File:ZeldaSymbol.png File:MetroidSymbol.png File:KirbySymbol.png File:StarFoxSymbol.png File:PokemonSymbol.png File:FZeroSymbol.png File:EarthboundSymbol.png File:IceClimbersSymbol.png File:FireEmblemSymbol.png File:Game&WatchSymbol.png File:KidIcarusSymbol.png File:PikminSymbol.png File:ROBSymbol.png File:PunchOutSymbol.png File:AnimalCrossingSymbol.png File:WiiFitSymbol.png File:SonicSymbol.png File:MetalGearSymbol.png File:MegaManSymbol.png

Characters

1. Start with a character order based on the weakest axiom: "SSB64 starters", "SSB64 unlockables", "Melee starters", "Melee unlockables", "Brawl starters", "Brawl unlockables", "SSB4 characters". Divided by universe, of course.

File:MarioSymbol.png File:YoshiSymbol.png File:WarioSymbol.png File:DKSymbol.png File:ZeldaSymbol.png File:MetroidSymbol.png File:KirbySymbol.png File:StarFoxSymbol.png File:PokemonSymbol.png File:FZeroSymbol.png File:EarthboundSymbol.png File:IceClimbersSymbol.png File:FireEmblemSymbol.png File:Game&WatchSymbol.png File:KidIcarusSymbol.png File:PikminSymbol.png File:ROBSymbol.png File:PunchOutSymbol.png File:AnimalCrossingSymbol.png File:WiiFitSymbol.png File:SonicSymbol.png File:MetalGearSymbol.png File:MegaManSymbol.png
MarioHeadSSB.png LuigiHeadSSB.png YoshiHeadSSB.png DonkeyKongHeadSSB.png LinkHeadSSB.png SamusHeadSSB.png KirbyHeadSSB.png FoxHeadSSB.png PikachuHeadSSB.png JigglypuffHeadSSB.png CaptainFalconHeadSSB.png NessHeadSSB.png
MarioHeadSSBM.png LuigiHeadSSBM.png BowserHeadSSBM.png PeachHeadSSBM.png DrMarioHeadSSBM.png YoshiHeadSSBM.png DonkeyKongHeadSSBM.png LinkHeadSSBM.png YoungLinkHeadSSBM.png ZeldaHeadSSBM.png SheikHeadSSBM.png GanondorfHeadSSBM.png SamusHeadSSBM.png KirbyHeadSSBM.png FoxHeadSSBM.png FalcoHeadSSBM.png PikachuHeadSSBM.png JigglypuffHeadSSBM.png PichuHeadSSBM.png MewtwoHeadSSBM.png CaptainFalconHeadSSBM.png NessHeadSSBM.png IceClimbersHeadSSBM.png MarthHeadSSBM.png RoyHeadSSBM.png MrGame&WatchHeadSSBM.png
MarioHeadSSBB.png LuigiHeadSSBB.png BowserHeadSSBB.png PeachHeadSSBB.png DrMarioHeadSSBM.png YoshiHeadSSBB.png WarioHeadSSBB.png DonkeyKongHeadSSBB.png DiddyKongHeadSSBB.png LinkHeadSSBB.png YoungLinkHeadSSBM.png ZeldaHeadSSBB.png SheikHeadSSBB.png GanondorfHeadSSBB.png ToonLinkHeadSSBB.png SamusHeadSSBB.png ZeroSuitSamusHeadSSBB.png KirbyHeadSSBB.png MetaKnightHeadSSBB.png KingDededeHeadSSBB.png FoxHeadSSBB.png FalcoHeadSSBB.png WolfHeadSSBB.png PikachuHeadSSBB.png JigglypuffHeadSSBB.png PichuHeadSSBM.png MewtwoHeadSSBM.png PokémonTrainerHeadSSBB.png LucarioHeadSSBB.png CaptainFalconHeadSSBB.png NessHeadSSBB.png LucasHeadSSBB.png IceClimbersHeadSSBB.png MarthHeadSSBB.png RoyHeadSSBM.png IkeHeadSSBB.png MrGame&WatchHeadSSBB.png PitHeadSSBB.png OlimarHeadSSBB.png ROBHeadSSBB.png SonicHeadSSBB.png SnakeHeadSSBB.png
MarioHeadSSB4-U.png LuigiHeadSSB4-U.png BowserHeadSSB4-U.png PeachHeadSSB4-U.png DrMarioHeadSSBM.png RosalinaHeadSSB4-U.png YoshiHeadSSB4-U.png WarioHeadSSBB.png DonkeyKongHeadSSB4-U.png DiddyKongHeadSSB4-U.png LinkHeadSSB4-U.png YoungLinkHeadSSBM.png ZeldaHeadSSB4-U.png SheikHeadSSB4-U.png GanondorfHeadSSBB.png ToonLinkHeadSSB4-U.png SamusHeadSSB4-U.png ZeroSuitSamusHeadSSB4-U.png KirbyHeadSSB4-U.png MetaKnightHeadSSBB.png KingDededeHeadSSB4-U.png FoxHeadSSB4-U.png FalcoHeadSSBB.png WolfHeadSSBB.png PikachuHeadSSB4-U.png JigglypuffHeadSSBB.png PichuHeadSSBM.png MewtwoHeadSSBM.png PokémonTrainerHeadSSBB.png LucarioHeadSSB4-U.png GreninjaHeadSSB4-U.png CaptainFalconHeadSSBB.png NessHeadSSBB.png LucasHeadSSBB.png IceClimbersHeadSSBB.png MarthHeadSSB4-U.png RoyHeadSSBM.png IkeHeadSSBB.png MrGame&WatchHeadSSBB.png PitHeadSSB4-U.png OlimarHeadSSB4-U.png ROBHeadSSBB.png LittleMacHeadSSB4-U.png VillagerHeadSSB4-U.png WiiFitTrainerHeadSSB4-U.png SonicHeadSSB4-U.png SnakeHeadSSBB.png MegaManHeadSSB4-U.png

2. Make some changes to satisfy stronger axioms:

a) Move Dr. Mario to after Luigi. Grouping similar characters is more important than listing unlockables last.
b) Move Young Link and Toon Link to after Link the the same reason (grouning very similar characters is more important than keeping games separated).
c) Put Bowser after Peach and Rosalina for axiom 6. (The Brawl character selection screen did this, interestingly enough.)
d) Define an order for PT's Pokémon. Squirtle-Ivysaur-Charizard is decided because not only does it follow the stages of evolution, it happens to be how the Subspace Emissary operates. (The other likely order would be by Pokédex number, and having Ivysaur listed first seems unusual.)
File:MarioSymbol.png File:YoshiSymbol.png File:WarioSymbol.png File:DKSymbol.png File:ZeldaSymbol.png File:MetroidSymbol.png File:KirbySymbol.png File:StarFoxSymbol.png File:PokemonSymbol.png File:FZeroSymbol.png File:EarthboundSymbol.png File:IceClimbersSymbol.png File:FireEmblemSymbol.png File:Game&WatchSymbol.png File:KidIcarusSymbol.png File:PikminSymbol.png File:ROBSymbol.png File:PunchOutSymbol.png File:AnimalCrossingSymbol.png File:WiiFitSymbol.png File:SonicSymbol.png File:MetalGearSymbol.png File:MegaManSymbol.png
MarioHeadSSB.png LuigiHeadSSB.png YoshiHeadSSB.png DonkeyKongHeadSSB.png LinkHeadSSB.png SamusHeadSSB.png KirbyHeadSSB.png FoxHeadSSB.png PikachuHeadSSB.png JigglypuffHeadSSB.png CaptainFalconHeadSSB.png NessHeadSSB.png
MarioHeadSSBM.png LuigiHeadSSBM.png DrMarioHeadSSBM.png PeachHeadSSBM.png BowserHeadSSBM.png YoshiHeadSSBM.png DonkeyKongHeadSSBM.png LinkHeadSSBM.png YoungLinkHeadSSBM.png ZeldaHeadSSBM.png SheikHeadSSBM.png GanondorfHeadSSBM.png SamusHeadSSBM.png KirbyHeadSSBM.png FoxHeadSSBM.png FalcoHeadSSBM.png PikachuHeadSSBM.png JigglypuffHeadSSBM.png PichuHeadSSBM.png MewtwoHeadSSBM.png CaptainFalconHeadSSBM.png NessHeadSSBM.png IceClimbersHeadSSBM.png MarthHeadSSBM.png RoyHeadSSBM.png MrGame&WatchHeadSSBM.png
MarioHeadSSBB.png LuigiHeadSSBB.png DrMarioHeadSSBM.png PeachHeadSSBB.png BowserHeadSSBB.png YoshiHeadSSBB.png WarioHeadSSBB.png DonkeyKongHeadSSBB.png DiddyKongHeadSSBB.png LinkHeadSSBB.png YoungLinkHeadSSBM.png ToonLinkHeadSSBB.png ZeldaHeadSSBB.png SheikHeadSSBB.png GanondorfHeadSSBB.png SamusHeadSSBB.png ZeroSuitSamusHeadSSBB.png KirbyHeadSSBB.png MetaKnightHeadSSBB.png KingDededeHeadSSBB.png FoxHeadSSBB.png FalcoHeadSSBB.png WolfHeadSSBB.png PikachuHeadSSBB.png JigglypuffHeadSSBB.png PichuHeadSSBM.png MewtwoHeadSSBM.png PokémonTrainerHeadSSBB.png SquirtleHeadSSBB.png IvysaurHeadSSBB.png CharizardHeadSSBB.png LucarioHeadSSBB.png CaptainFalconHeadSSBB.png NessHeadSSBB.png LucasHeadSSBB.png IceClimbersHeadSSBB.png MarthHeadSSBB.png RoyHeadSSBM.png IkeHeadSSBB.png MrGame&WatchHeadSSBB.png PitHeadSSBB.png OlimarHeadSSBB.png ROBHeadSSBB.png SonicHeadSSBB.png SnakeHeadSSBB.png
MarioHeadSSB4-U.png LuigiHeadSSB4-U.png DrMarioHeadSSBM.png PeachHeadSSB4-U.png RosalinaHeadSSB4-U.png BowserHeadSSB4-U.png YoshiHeadSSB4-U.png WarioHeadSSBB.png DonkeyKongHeadSSB4-U.png DiddyKongHeadSSB4-U.png LinkHeadSSB4-U.png YoungLinkHeadSSBM.png ToonLinkHeadSSB4-U.png ZeldaHeadSSB4-U.png SheikHeadSSB4-U.png GanondorfHeadSSBB.png SamusHeadSSB4-U.png ZeroSuitSamusHeadSSB4-U.png KirbyHeadSSB4-U.png MetaKnightHeadSSBB.png KingDededeHeadSSB4-U.png FoxHeadSSB4-U.png FalcoHeadSSBB.png WolfHeadSSBB.png PikachuHeadSSB4-U.png JigglypuffHeadSSBB.png PichuHeadSSBM.png MewtwoHeadSSBM.png PokémonTrainerHeadSSBB.png SquirtleHeadSSBB.png IvysaurHeadSSBB.png CharizardHeadSSB4-U.png LucarioHeadSSB4-U.png GreninjaHeadSSB4-U.png CaptainFalconHeadSSBB.png NessHeadSSBB.png LucasHeadSSBB.png IceClimbersHeadSSBB.png MarthHeadSSB4-U.png RoyHeadSSBM.png IkeHeadSSBB.png MrGame&WatchHeadSSBB.png PitHeadSSB4-U.png OlimarHeadSSB4-U.png ROBHeadSSBB.png LittleMacHeadSSB4-U.png VillagerHeadSSB4-U.png WiiFitTrainerHeadSSB4-U.png SonicHeadSSB4-U.png SnakeHeadSSBB.png MegaManHeadSSB4-U.png

Comparison to other orders

An extra warning that this is mostly based on the above opinionated axioms. If you have an order not listed here, list it on the talk page and provide some arguments.

Character selection screen order

This seems appropriate since it's based on arguably the most important menu in the game, right? But as it turns out they're actually pretty poor.

  • Collectively: They break axiom 1.
  • SSB64: Luigi comes first; this doesn't break any axioms, but it defies logic that Mario isn't first. Unlockables are on the ends and in the middle. Yoshi is separated from Mario.
  • Melee: Dr. Mario comes first (see above); in fact 50% of the clones come before their originals. The middle row is objectively backwards, forced into being reversed so that Ganondorf is reasonably close to the other Zelda characters, meaning we need a special rule for reading the middle row right-to-left for things to flow as expected.
  • Brawl: Must be read as columns instead of rows for universe grouping, unlike previous two games. Throws new one-character universes into soft spots in the middle without much regard for surroundings. It's certainly not as bad as the last two, but it's not particularly good either.
  • Brawl's SSE: No. Just no. It does a pretty good job of organizing by game and unlockability, but it sacrifices universal groups for it, and that's a deal-breaker.

Overall series release order

Brawl's all-star mode did this. Basically, it throws game associations out the window and continues to slot things between other things so the earliest universes come first and the latest come last. I wouldn't say this is a bad idea, but any order that has Mr. Game & Watch first is a bit sketchy, and Yoshi and Wario being in the middle of nowhere leaves something to be desired.

Alphabetical order

Just listing for completeness. Alphabetical order is a completely valid order in many cases and is probably the best choice in super-formal contexts. But when you want to list characters and not just their names, I think alphabetical order is too impersonal and stuffy.

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