User talk:Trainer Alex

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You want to change your username? Iron Reggie, the Fearsome Warrior 02:49, 5 April 2018 (EDT)

Username change[edit]

Your username has been successfully changed from "Alex Parpotta" to "Trainer Alex" as per your request. Please remember that you are responsible for fixing any double redirects that this may have caused. Thanks! Serpent SKSig.png King 06:06, 17 April 2018 (EDT)

If I may?[edit]

I need help with something in particular. I wish to edit the update history section of King Dedede's page. I want to change all "Gordo Tosses" to "Gordo Throw". However, I am unsure on how to do it, as when I go to edit the section...there's a small section of text that indicates update itself, but it doesn't show any of the changes. I had asked Serpent King for help prior, but he did not respond. I appreciate your time. Capnap64 (talk) 11:25, 3 May 2018 (EDT)

It appears he's already answered this but just to clarify, when you get to the page, it will look as though it's mostly empty, as the character specific information is hidden, so you'll need to click edit and view the source to find the update list for King Dedede and correct the information. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 13:00, 3 May 2018 (EDT)
Indeed, he already did answer, but I am indebted for your time and attention. I will be pleased to work with you for the time I am here. Capnap64 (talk) 13:18, 3 May 2018 (EDT)

Inkling Pronouns[edit]

Hello. You recently undid the edit I made to the Super Jump page, and I wanted to let you know why I'll be reverting it. When we have character who can be multiple genders, such as Wii Fit Trainer, Pokémon Trainer, or Corrin, we use the pronoun of whatever their default form is. For Inkling, that is female. You can see this "policy" in action on the pages of the characters I've listed, including Inkling's. I apologize for any confusion, and I understand why there was a misunderstanding. I also made this error when editing Inkling's page. I hope this clears things up. Toymaker's Creation VelEye.png "Thank you for your contribution." 13:14, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

Wait, hold up. Per SW:1RV you can't just announce that you're going to revert it back without actually discussing the issue first. The problem with listing Inkling as explicitly male or female is that we don't technically know which one will be the default costume on the game's release. Additionally in the case of the Inklings the argument can be made that neither is the "default", and which one happens to be the default costume is arbitrary. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 13:18, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
My apologies, I had been careless with the revert. I should have waited for a response. Now, my argument is that it isn't arbitrary. As with other multi-gendered characters, the "default" is whichever first appears when hovered in the character select or appears most prominently in promotional material (such as the official website). We don't have to "technically" know which one will be the default on release because we are only using information from the demo as a guide. Just about anything could change between now and release, so saying that it could change between now and release could be used as an argument not to put any information we saw in the demo on the wiki. We operate based on what we know now, and all available information indicates that the default form for Inkling is female. Toymaker's Creation VelEye.png "Thank you for your contribution." 13:31, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
No, we do not refer to Mii Brawler as male even though it is shown as male on the select screen, as Miis are customizable characters that can be either gender. Inklings are also customizable characters that can be either gender, so we should treat them the way we treat Miis, not the way we treat fighters like Robin. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 13:39, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
Villagers are customizable, yet we refer to the Villager character in Smash as a male, because that's the default. And, if I may, Robin is the exact same case: he is a customizable avatar in Awakening, that can be either gender. Same with Corrin. Your argument is flawed, Alex. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 13:46, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
Well then that raises the question of why we don't refer to those fighters as they too. The default costume's gender was selected arbitrarily so that should not be the basis of how we gender them. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 13:50, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
I agree with Aidan. The default gender may be decided arbitrarily, but it isn't by us. We merely follow and edit the wiki according to what the developers provide, and in these instances they show a clear tendency of deciding what the default gender is and showing it in the ways I mentioned earlier. I don't see a problem with following that lead. Toymaker's Creation VelEye.png "Thank you for your contribution." 13:54, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
Um no, the way I see it it's about time we have an actual policy discussion on this, because this unspoken rule seems very ill-conceived to me.
Not unspoken per se. It's on the Manual of Style. It does say that it should refer to its default gender. Since that's the female variation and there's no "customisation" in the E3 demo yet, let alone on the scope of the Miis. It should apply to the Inkling until confirmed otherwise. Nokii (talk) 14:04, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

(reset indent (and edit conflict)) While I can't speak for the Villager, I can speak for the other characters:

  • The female Inkling was the first one to be shown off in the E3 2014 trailer. Within the games themselves, the default gender is set to female.
  • Both Robin and Corrin are defaulted to male within Awakening and Fates, respectively. Male is also the primary gender shown off in both of their Smash 4 trailers, even more so with Robin than Corrin.
  • Even the Wii Fit Trainer is defaulted to female within all Wii Fit games - I myself didn't even know for a long time that you could even change the gender to male at all.

Villager, you could make a case for, but, seeing as how the male was the primary gender for Smash 4 (shown off in the E3 trailer as male, and female wasn't even confirmed until after the April Smash Direct back in 2014), I think we should keep consistency with that and refer to Villager as male. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 13:57, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

The argument seems to be "we use default pronouns for Mii Fighters so we should use it for all multi-gendered characters", which I don't agree with because the Mii Fighters are clearly an exception rather than a rule. No other character's appearance functions like theirs does in Smash Bros, so why they'd be the rule instead of the exception does not make sense to me. Toymaker's Creation VelEye.png "Thank you for your contribution." 14:02, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
Following Nokii's post:
If referring to a fighter that has both genders as costume choices (such as Robin or Corrin), use the gender pronoun that matches the default choice.
Case closed. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 14:07, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
Actually that part about Wii Fit Trainer is wrong. When you first make the file it actually asks you which gender trainer you want. But in any case I'm not particularly interested in what the defaults happen to be in the game, the point remains that their genders are indefinite and can be changed and customized, and thus I think there is a very strong case that can be made for making them gender neutral. I think we should at least have a proper policy discussion about this. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 14:07, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
We have a policy rule in place. There is no need for discussion. The Inkling is female in Smash by default, so the Inkling is a she. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 14:09, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
I agree with Aidan. This is something we hammered out for smash 4 (that gender is based on defaults (in Smash not home series)). There isn't a good reason to reopen this discussion because nothing has changed. Serpent SKSig.png King 14:13, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
So is it safe to revert the edit on Super Jump? Toymaker's Creation VelEye.png "Thank you for your contribution." 14:16, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

(reset indent) Already taken care of. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 14:17, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

The way I see it, that's quite foolish logic. Since I don't remember this discussion it must have happened before I joined, which means it is a very old discussion. Policies should be held to scrutiny and amendment from time to time, so saying that we shouldn't re-open the discussion is not a great argument. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 14:20, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
It was put in place for Smash 4. It has been used ever since. If four years old is "very old", then I'm a senior citizen. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 14:21, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
4 years is long enough for a re-election for president so why shouldn't it be long enough for policy rediscussion. Comparing policy age to human age is just silly.Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 14:23, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
Your arguments in favor of changing the policy have not been very strong, I must say. If you think you can convince many other users of something that they couldn't be convinced of before, then go for it. For now, we should follow the policy. Toymaker's Creation VelEye.png "Thank you for your contribution." 14:22, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
What does this even have to do with politics? Disputing something that has been adhered for the last 4 years just for the sake of it is even sillier. Nokii (talk) 14:30, 17 June 2018 (EDT)


The heck's that supposed to mean? 18:15, 22 June 2018 (EDT)

Well first you could try and be less aggressive. But anyway the trivia you added was somewhat dubious, hence why I reverted it. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 18:20, 22 June 2018 (EDT)
How? 18:23, 22 June 2018 (EDT)
Call me a fanboy if you want, but how would you know if that person was wrong? 18:32, 22 June 2018 (EDT)
"Death quotes" as he describes them are not a thing in smash......if he's referring to star KO voices those are in single player modeAlex the Jigglypuff trainer 18:39, 22 June 2018 (EDT)
Ahem. "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." - Stalin 19:04, 22 June 2018 (EDT)
This has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Death quotes are not present in Smash. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 02:59, 23 June 2018 (EDT)
Also see this: User talk: Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 13:23, 23 June 2018 (EDT)

Dark Samus Ultimate Section[edit]

Um, Trainer Alex. I discussed that edit on the talk page first and was told to mention the palette swap, in a similar manner to Pit's "Dark Pit" palette swap. I was told to do that by TheNuttyOne. Can you at least tell me the reason why it was removed? 08:46, 31 July 2018 (EDT)Blueflame105

Looking at the talk page, it seems Nutty specifically told you NOT to add the speculative part about Dark Samus' status in the new game (which you ignored), but yes he did say that you could possibly mention the palette change. However that information does not really fit well on that page, and is better suited to the Alternate costume (SSBU) page, where incidentally that information is currently absent. I undid your edit because part of it was speculative, and the other belonged elsewhere. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 08:59, 31 July 2018 (EDT)
Apologies, it seems like I didn't understand something yet again. I thought that meant don't include speculation about being a character or not, but i was just being stupid again, apparently. I seem to bungle up every edit i try to/do make. And I apologize again, because I did not realize saying her status was unknown was speculative, because I had seen it on other pages before. Again, I'm sorry. 09:15, 31 July 2018 (EDT)Blueflame105
Well, the problem is that listing everything we don't know is mundane (see a recent discussion on the Stages page for an example of this). Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 09:20, 31 July 2018 (EDT)
Thank you for actually explaining this to me. This is probably the third time you've taken the effort to do this, and I do genuinely appreciate it. 09:23, 31 July 2018 (EDT)Blueflame105

Weight and knockback taken multipliers for the Mushrooms, Metal Box, and Lightning[edit]

  • I thoroughly studied the knockback mechanics while inputting the information that you've removed, which even includes combining the items together. The tests do involve Bowser's Tough Guy mechanic, along with the minimum amount of knockback that has to be dealt to make fighters enter a tumbling animation. If you don't agree with my findings, you can test them out yourself in Training mode if you have a copy of Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. 10:06, 4 August 2018 (EDT)
I already explained to you why testing alone will not be sufficient for this on your talk page. As someone who tests things in the game quite a lot, I can tell you it simply isn't possible to get an accurate result in this case. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 10:09, 4 August 2018 (EDT)
It seemed pretty accurate when I tested the stuff myself. For an example, if Bowser picks up a Super Mushroom, he won't flinch from a hitbox that deals 2% damage, has 20 BKB, and 30 KBG, until his current damage goes over 2%. But I guess any knockback taken multiplier that isn't 100% accurate (we're talking about large decimal values) can't be completely trusted. 10:46, 4 August 2018 (EDT)

About this[edit]

Because of the trivia being uninteresting, something you would have seen if you were looking at the RC, due to the edit immediately before it being me explaining my actions. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 10:21, 19 August 2018 (EDT)

I'm not sure how exactly it's "uninteresting", I certainly never realized it before I read that and I found it interesting. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 10:23, 19 August 2018 (EDT)

The instant KO thing...[edit]

The way I see it, OHKO means KO at 0%; instant KO means vanish without launching, so I feel like it should be its own article. Unfortunately, I am just not capable of making a whole article, as I suck with sounding professional, and Language Arts. I did what I did in hopes that someone would help me make it. Unowninator (talk) 12:02, 23 August 2018 (EDT)

:instant KO is most commonly used as another way of saying OHKO
From what I've been hearing, instant KO refers to danger zones (in the WiiU Nintendo Direct), and Death's Scythe. Please reconsider the disambig. Unowninator (talk) 13:02, 23 August 2018 (EDT)
*sigh* You're clearly not going to compromise, aren't you? I guess I'll just have to wait for an admin to decide. Unowninator (talk) 13:30, 23 August 2018 (EDT)
I'm not sure why you think you are above the rules here. No formal discussion about making that page a disambig has occurred, and as such, a major change of that kind can not happen. If you want the page to be moved, tag it with the appropriate template and then make your case on the talk page. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 13:32, 23 August 2018 (EDT)
I apologize for breaking the rules; I didn't realize I was, and I did that way because I didn't know how to do it. When you say tag it with the appropriate template, do you mean {{template:Move}}? Unowninator (talk) 13:36, 23 August 2018 (EDT)
Yes. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 13:36, 23 August 2018 (EDT)

Okay, done. I'd like to apologize once again for screwing up. Unowninator (talk) 13:39, 23 August 2018 (EDT)

Just wanted to say thanks. Unowninator (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2018 (EDT)
In the future, leave a description on the template that details what you are trying to propose. A descriptive edit summary would have also been nice. Serpent SKSig.png King 14:23, 24 August 2018 (EDT)
I understand. So, what do you think? Can we please make the disambig? Unowninator (talk) 15:32, 24 August 2018 (EDT)

Please stop undoing my edits without a good reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

You have been warned multiple times not to violate policy and have ignored all of these warnings. The edit you made violates SW:CONSENSUS, and therefore cannot be permitted. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 12:25, 25 August 2018 (EDT)

You ignored my statement that I don't have time to read the stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

That is NOT an excuse. If you have time to edit pages you have time to read the policies. If you really do not have enough time to read over policies, particularly the ones that it has been pointed out that you are in violation of, then you should not be editing here. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 12:30, 25 August 2018 (EDT)
It's not my fault that the thing is too long. If you want me to read them, I humbly request you make them shorter.—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

Do you have any idea how hurtful you're being?!—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

I'm sorry if the idea of rules upsets you, but that doesn't make you exempt from them. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 12:44, 25 August 2018 (EDT)

And you aren't breaking a rule? You're harassing me!—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

Enforcing policy and warning you against breaking them is not harassment. And for the record, if you don't stop edit warring on that page, you will most likely be blocked. If you do not want that to happen, I suggest you stop. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 12:47, 25 August 2018 (EDT)

ALso you're doing the same thing I am.—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) What do you mean by blocked?

This Richter business[edit]

I'm seeing you misuse rollback here. These edits were not vandalism, and the whole edit war could have been prevented with an edit summary or a talk page post. Serpent SKSig.png King 18:05, 26 August 2018 (EDT)

It's not misuse of rollback though. Rollback is frequently used when a warning about making a particular edit has already been issued to a user, particularly if that edit violates policy (which this one does, as it violates SW:NOT). The user in question has been given more than enough warnings not to make these speculative edits, and yet has chosen to ignore every single one of them. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 20:20, 26 August 2018 (EDT)
Please don't argue with me here. Don't use rollback this way. These are cases where an edit summary is necessary. Serpent SKSig.png King 20:22, 26 August 2018 (EDT)
Use of rollback is only excused for edits explained with a prior edit summary (that is immediately apparent, that wasn’t the case here) or a talk page post. You may be thinking of 1RV, where an exception applies if making the edit to enforce policies OTHER than 1RV itself. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 00:12, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
Listen, I'm sorry if this comes off as arguing but I'd like to defend my position. Memoryman's edits were in violation of SW:NOT, and he had made the exact same edits on multiple occasions. I, along with other users, had warned him not to make these edits, yet he continued to do so. Making edits that violate policy after having been warned that those exact edits are in violation of policy constitutes as bad faith as far as I'm concerned, as there is absolutely no way he did not realize that his edits violate policy. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 06:01, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
Truth be told, I don't see what the speculation is. He had a source, and provided it - what more do you want? Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 06:20, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
No, the sources he provided effectively stated he has the same basic moveset, something we already knew. He has twisted this into an unrelated and unconfirmed statement about the attack properties being the same, something which has NOT been demonstrated. Furthermore he has continued to violate SW:NOT even after this conversation begun, which in my eyes is further proof that he has no regard for policy or warnings from other users, and therefore has crossed the line into bad faith. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 06:26, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
Maybe to you it's unreasonable to believe he is good faith, but not to me. There've been plenty of examples to me where there has been good intention, even if a single policy has been broken repeatedly. Most people don't intentionally do it, even repeatedly like here - many just don't know the rules. And frankly, it really bothers me that you would forgo this caution and immediately assume bad faith without anything being clear cut. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 06:53, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
The problem isn't that he's repeatedly violating policies. The problem is that he has repeatedly violated the same policy in the exact same way multiple times, while repeatedly being warned about it and even responding in ways that demonstrates that he is aware he has been warned about it. I'd imagine you haven't witnessed the full story, but believe me, he is well aware of what he is doing. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 06:57, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
Again, I don't think so. Yes, it's unlikely, but it's not impossible and certainly not unreasonable that he may firmly believe that he has every right to add that info, because again, it's reasonable to believe that it's not speculative. I'm sure he firmly believes this to be true.
Putting all that aside however, remember that "Assuming bad faith creates suspicion and conflict between users, and impedes progress, as well as undermining community spirit. Assume other editors are working toward the betterment of SmashWiki, and assist them when necessary. Assuming bad faith has a profoundly negative effect on the entire wiki." Let's say for a moment that he is deliberately ignoring SW:NOT - I can easily see why he might think it's not speculative. If we are to follow this logic, it's possible he was ignoring SW:NOT because it's not speculative, therefore that policy doesn't apply. Even so though, deliberately ignoring policy or not, he's still at least trying to help, even if his attempts are woefully misguided. By treating him in this manner, you're engaging in very harmful behaviour towards an otherwise valuable member. I think we can agree this is bad overall. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 07:07, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
Even that is not really applicable here, as he has been told that since what he is adding is unconfirmed, it qualifies as speculation. He is choosing to not heed these warnings, and that is his issue. Also, please do not patronise me by repeatedly talking about assume good faith, I am familiar with this policy. The problem is that he has been given the benefit of the doubt too many times at this stage, and you can only turn a blind eye and assume good faith so many times before it becomes clear that a user is not interested in listening. I assumed good faith the first few times and he continued to defy warnings. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 07:13, 27 August 2018 (EDT)

(Reset indent) What I see from this situation is two clear sides to the argument:

  • BV is stating that the editor should be given the benefit of the doubt, and should be guided in the right way to not have conflicting edits.
  • Alex is stating that the editor has gone off the hook before, and is adding information that is outright false, despite being told not to.

The wording from the Direct is "though his strengths are the same". I do have to agree that this has been misconstrued by the editor to mean that they have no differences at all, which is a speculative statement. But I cannot fully say whether or not Alex's accusations towards the user are out of place or not, as I have unfortunately not held enough of a presence on the wiki as of late. But as of right now, the only clear thing is that the editor is adding a speculative statement, and should be confronted about it (in a mature fashion; not yelling at them outright). If that does not work, then another solution can be reached. Aidan, the Rurouni 10:27, 27 August 2018 (EDT)

It is incorrect to say Yeti Kong was at all influenced by DKCR's Super Kong[edit]

Hi, Alex. I've noticed your revisions to the SSB4 and SSBU alternate pages concerning Donkey Kong's white alt, and I saw your justification: "Seems like we've been through this before.....anyway that doesn't say anything of the resemblance, the decision to carry over the costume means its appearance in each game can be treated separately". With all due respect, I completely disagree. While yes, it is technically possible that the white alt was included in SSB4 and Ultimate because of Super Kong's presence in DKCR, it's a completely unsubstantiated claim that you can't prove. As with most characters, all of Donkey Kong's alts from Brawl were carried over into SSB4. It would have been unusual for Yeti Kong to not be in the game, regardless of whether or not Super Kong was a thing. If they really wanted to make a connection, surely they would have made the tie blue. Instead, everything was kept the same. The most conservative claim we can make is that the source of the white costume is the same as it was in Brawl. This is especially evident by the fact that Sakurai cites the same sources of inspirations for Samus' returning alts in SSB4 that he cited on the original Smash 64 Dojo site - and there was an even longer gap between 64 and Smash 4 than their was between Brawl and SSB4. Nintendo101 (talk) 12:54, 12 September 2018 (EDT)

Launch rate move[edit]

In your opinion, have their been enough responses to constitute consensus? And if so, would using a speedy deletion template on the redirect, with the consensus as justification, be appropriate? SuperFalconBros (talk) 12:25, 20 September 2018 (EDT)

Yes, I'd say so. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 15:32, 20 September 2018 (EDT)

Tabuu HP Values[edit]

Got a question about the HP values in the Tabuu article. I've been going through Boss Battles with memory watch to get all the HP values for all the bosses, and I've noticed a couple discrepancies. For example, I also got 160 for Normal, but I got 111 for Easy instead of 110, and 212.5 for Hard instead of 210. How did you determine the values that are in the article currently? SuperFalconBros (talk) 09:54, 18 October 2018 (EDT)

Sonic in Ultimate[edit]

How do you know Sonic's up smash isn't stronger and his nair doesn't have less knockback...? Smash Master 14:57, 29 December 2018 (EST)

instead of rolling back[edit]

Have a discussion with them. This is not vandalism, rollback is not appropriate. Serpent SKSig.png King 18:00, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Oh, it looked like it was vandalism since the user had been warned against removing large chunks of information. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 09:32, 11 February 2019 (EST)

What stages did you test the Ridley thing on?[edit]

[1] So far, every stage I've tested has the fighters land above solid ground, so no KOs. ¿¡Unowninator?! (talk) 21:16, 11 February 2019 (EST)

It is possible on the following stages: Rainbow Cruise, Mushroomy Kingdom, 3D Land, Frigate Orpheon (albeit with difficulty), Dream Land GB.
In addition, on some stages such as Norfair it is possible to knock opponents into other stage hazards for KOs, which is only possible if the opponent takes enough knockback from the initial attack.
I know these things seem small, but since there is no tangible drawbacks to the knockback increase, but there are tangible benefits, it should be classified as a buff, as this is how we classify changes, even incredibly minor ones. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 03:44, 12 February 2019 (EST)

SSBU hitstun[edit]

Since your edit summary here got cut off, what were you going to say? 034.png DracoRex, Creator of the Land 11:45, 13 February 2019 (EST)

Yes, I was going to say that Link would actually have a down tilt -> forward air kill confirm if hitstun behaved normally, as his Fair is a mere 2 frames too slow at percent ranges where he can land it after dtilt out of a full-hop. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 11:48, 13 February 2019 (EST)
Oh. Well, what you changed in the hitstun page is true for the most part, but that specific example doesn't really work. Link's dtilt and fair were both nerfed in frame data, so they're the true culprits here; if they were unchanged from SSB4, that kill confirm would work even with the altered hitstun, since you would have 5 more frames of advantage. Just pointing that out. 034.png DracoRex, Creator of the Land 13:15, 13 February 2019 (EST)
No, that's a factor, but so is the reduced hitstun. Were hitstun kept the same the only way in which this kill confirm wouldn't work would have been if the nerf to the frame data of those moves was completely unreasonable. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 13:21, 13 February 2019 (EST)