User talk:Toomai/On the order of things

I believe that Villager and Mii fighters (from the Animal Crossing and Smash Bros universes) should be placed before Little Mac because their universes were represented by stages in previous games (the logo denotes an established universe). Thus these are not Newcomer universes like Punch Out, but veteran ones. There should be a new Axiom to address this; when previously established universes (based on stages, not fighters) gain a playable character for the first time, those universes are placed before brand new universes. Thus the new order should be (Mii fighters (smash bros came out in 1999), Villager (animal crossing came out in 2001), then brand new universes like Punch out and Wii Fit). This is the only flaw I saw in this method, so please consider this and fix it.

- IGGY7735 —Preceding unsigned comment added by IGGY7735 (talk • contribs) 22:06, 23 June 2014 (EDT)

I agree that something's not right about a universe with only an Assist Trophy in Brawl (Punch-Out) coming before a universe with a stage in Brawl (Animal Crossing). But in my opinion, the order should be constructable without having to use that knowledge - it makes everything simpler in general when cross-game references are limited. I could consider it more, but at this point I don't think I'll be changing it. Toomai Glittershine The Prismatic 00:01, 24 June 2014 (EDT)

Shouldn't Lucina be next to Marth, like you did with the Links? 84.26.240.80 06:12, 16 August 2014 (EDT)

Your comment has caused me to realize I do a very poor job of defining what "similar characters" actually means. Does it mean the characters are clones or semi-clones within Smash Bros., or are closely-related in their home universes? Or both? The Mario group is "original, brother semi-clone, alt-version clone" and the Link group is "original, alt-version clone, alt-version semi-clone", so there's no debate there, but I need to draw the line somewhere for less-obvious groups. It'll probably be a judgement call no matter what I do, but I'll think about it, and Lucina will probably be moved. Toomai Glittershine The Glow 11:21, 16 August 2014 (EDT)

A few suggestions...

A couple of changes I'd suggest based on my own thought processes:

• I would think that sorting by game of introduction would be more important than sorting by clone or hero/villain status. For example, I'd sort the Mario characters Mario, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina. (You also seem to have done this anyways in some cases by leaving Pichu after Jigglypuff.)
• Even if the previous point isn't put into effect, Lucina should be after Roy since she's a later-introduced moveset clone of the same character (despite her other similarities to Marth).
• We also need a sorting order location for stage-only universes for things like stage list boxes. Does Find Mii or Tomodachi come first, for example?

Thoughts? Miles (talk) 14:37, 19 August 2014 (EDT)

I never really knew what to do with Pichu; in some of the earliest versions of the list he was between Pikachu and Jigglypuff, but by the time Brawl came around he was cemented after the two. He's a clone, but he's only related to Pikachu by being in the same evolution line, unlike the other such characters that are both clones and canonically blood relatives. He's also a "true neutral" in every sense (being effectively a wild Pokémon), and has no canon allegiance to anyone else (this is pretty much why all the Pokémon are ordered by game - there's no real priority otherwise).

I was considering the order Marth-Roy-Lucina, but in the end it just feels wrong to me to group two unrelated lords closer than two distant relatives.

I guess the takeaway from this is that I prioritize characters as characters, not as fighters. I don't really want to have to use knowledge of who's in what game to order things if it's not as a tiebreaker (hence why it's late in the axiom list).

I do have an non-published order for non-character universes, so I might as well see what I can do about adding it to this page. Toomai Glittershine The Incomperable 14:58, 19 August 2014 (EDT)

Brawl Character order

I was thinking of an order like:

1. Mario
2. Donkey Kong
3. Link
4. Samus/Zero Suit Samus
5. Yoshi
6. Kirby
7. Fox
8. Pikachu
9. Luigi
10. Captain Falcon
11. Ness
12. Bowser
13. Peach
14. Zelda/Sheik
15. Ice Climbers
16. Marth
17. Mr. Game & Watch
18. Falco
19. Ganondorf
20. Wario
21. Meta Knight
22. Pit
23. Olimar
24. Lucas
25. Diddy Kong
26. Pokémon Trainer
27. King Dedede
28. Ike
29. Lucario
30. R.O.B.
31. Jigglypuff
32. Toon Link
33. Wolf
34. Snake
35. Sonic

Where everyone is ordered according to their Brawl character ID. ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) is a never lover boy 20:53, 20 August 2014 (EDT)

There are issues with "in-game technical orders" like this that make them less-than-ideal.

1. Games might have multiple technical orders. Melee's debug mode character selector puts Zelda and Sheik in the middle, but on the disc's ROM they're near the front. Brawl has Jigglypuff late in the order you list, but not in the co-op event 21 order.
2. They're not all-encompassing for the series as a whole. For example, where does Dr. Mario fit in this list?
3. They may be completely nonsensical to non-technical people.

Toomai Glittershine Le Grand Fromage 21:09, 20 August 2014 (EDT)

Move

Can this be moved to somewhere easier to find? Like 'SmashWiki:Character Order'? If this is supposed to be a guideline as to how to order characters in the mainspace, it should be a policy/guideline/help page. Qwerty (talk) 00:02, 22 August 2014 (EDT)

This is not an official wiki page that mandates what to do. It's a userpage that outlines what one user believes is the best way to go, and whether you conform to it in mainspace or not is up to you. Obviously I'd prefer this order be used in most cases, but that's just me being biased, not me speaking as a staff member. Toomai Glittershine The Researcher 00:15, 22 August 2014 (EDT)

Duck Hunt's Placement

Since this is the pseudo-official order we go by here on the site, I have a question about Duck Hunt's placement. In the third, fourth, and fifth developments, you put Earthbound, F-Zero, G&W and Gyromite at the end since they're unlockable, yet you order Duck Hunt as if it was a starting series, is there a specific reason you did this? Laikue (talk|contribs) 01:27, 18 September 2014 (EDT)

Bumpo, since this was never answered. Laikue (talk|contribs) 13:05, 16 October 2014 (EDT)

Hmm yes I appear to have overlooked this. I think I accidentally put so much effort into the ordering of all the new universes by release date that I glossed over how Duck Hunt is the only new universe to be unlockable and so should come afterwards. This will be fixed. Toomai Glittershine The Xanthic 13:36, 16 October 2014 (EDT)

Clones

I'd actually like to propose an amendment to this ordering system that places the clearest cases of cloning last in their series. The games already do this to an extent (Toon Link consistently listed after all other Zelda characters, the appended nature of the Melee clones on the CSS, the "clone corner" in SSB4). While I'm on the fence in the case of the more de-cloned characters (Falco in particular), I feel like this would in general be an improvement. Miles (talk) 12:55, 23 November 2014 (EST)

Clone status can change between games, so I'm not a fan of this idea at first glance. Toomai Glittershine The Boss 20:07, 23 November 2014 (EST)

It occured to me that the "clone status can change" argument could apply to any order that uses cloneosity as a criteria, which the current one kinda-sorta does - yet the characters this applies to are also highly similar clone status notwithstanding, so it's reasonable to group them together regardless. It's a little wishy-washy and case-by-case-ish.

So, slightly different counter-argument. This order is fundamentally intended to group similar characters together, and throwing clones at the end of the list goes against that idea. I'm not sure what benefit we get from (for example) having 8 characters between Pikachu and Pichu. Toomai Glittershine The Quiet 20:23, 23 November 2014 (EST)

Bringing this up again, with the following clarification: I feel like the best order is by game of introduction with clones last. It's incredibly jarring to me to see Lucina placed before Ike (and also separate from Robin), or to see Toon Link not last out of the Zelda characters (where all in-game orders place him). This seems like the most practical intra-series sorting method. Miles (talk) 00:37, 17 January 2015 (EST)

It all comes back down to "characters as characters" versus "characters as fighters"; I'm strongly attached to the former, while you seem to prefer the latter. It's incredibly jarring for me to see any Links separate from the other Links, or to see Bowser separated from Junior. I do agree that Lucina's placement is a lose-lose situation though. Toomai Glittershine The Incomperable 01:01, 17 January 2015 (EST)

I'm not totally sure I understand your distinction; for me, I think in terms of chronology of introduction in Smash more than anything, and clones coming last as developmental after-thoughts. Just for the record, the following would be closer to my preferred layout:

File:MarioSymbol.png

File:YoshiSymbol.png

File:DKSymbol.png

File:ZeldaSymbol.png

File:MetroidSymbol.png

File:KirbySymbol.png

File:StarFoxSymbol.png

File:PokemonSymbol.png

File:FZeroSymbol.png

File:EarthboundSymbol.png

File:IceClimbersSymbol.png

File:FireEmblemSymbol.png

File:Game&WatchSymbol.png

File:KidIcarusSymbol.png

File:WarioSymbol.png

File:PikminSymbol.png

File:ROBSymbol.png

File:PunchOutSymbol.png

File:AnimalCrossingSymbol.png

File:WiiFitSymbol.png

File:XenobladeSymbol.png

File:DuckHuntSymbol.png

File:MetalGearSymbol.png

File:SonicSymbol.png

File:MegaManSymbol.png

File:PacManSymbol.png

...but I know this kind of thing is highly subjective, so I'm not quite sure where to go from here. Miles (talk) 01:13, 17 January 2015 (EST)

If it's of any use, I've more thoroughly laid out my preferred order here. I'm curious about your thoughts on the subject (either on that page's talk or here). Miles (talk) 23:30, 10 February 2015 (EST)