Talk:Tier list/Archive 8

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NOTE: We understand that tiers are a point of contention among members of the Smash community. However, this page discusses the tier lists that the Smash Back Room have posted. These are accepted by almost every high level player, and as such are important and notable content to this wiki. Discussion on this talk page should be limited to the content of the page, not to debate on the ordering of tiers, we report the tier lists, we don't decide them. If you want to discuss the tier lists, go to these forums; (forum for Smash 4, forum for Melee). If you want to argue tier placements, take it to Smashboards, not here. Additionally, do not use this page to argue about the existence of tiers. If you firmly believe tiers do not exist and are intent on changing the Wiki's stance about it, go see the argument we have on it on this page here, and thoroughly refute the treatise on its talk page, do not argue it here.

Simplified version of the above: Don't edit this page unless you have something to contribute about what the SBR said and the content of this article. We don't care if you disagree with them or tiers in general.

Master Hand

I was going to make an edit talking about how Master Hand was once on the Melee tier list, should the article have this? OmegaSpacePirate (talk) 06:54, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

If you're talking about the "Gengar" tier, that's mentioned here. Zyrac (talk) 07:36, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

SSB4 tier list

The tier for ssb4 was made on smashboards. http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-community-voted-tier-list-version-1-0-finished-time-for-a-break.379736/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wintermelon43 (talk • contribs) 16:23, March 26, 2015‎

We've already discussed this. Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura 16:25, 26 March 2015 (EDT)

SSB4 japanese tier list released

http://smashboards.com/threads/new-japanese-tier-list-by-shi-g.394772/ 24.201.157.175 02:06, 7 April 2015 (EDT)

Exactly! So what's wrong with it?Nintenzilla (talk) 13:09, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

Back Room tier lists only 73MPL4R Only the dead have seen the end of war 13:59, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

I think the Smash Back Room tier lists are the official worldwide tier lists. Plus I still think it's pretty hard to come up with a Smash 4 tier list with the DLC characters and the patches shaking the standings up. Dots (talk) The Skyfall 14:10, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

That should probably go on Japanese tier list. Nyargleblargle (Talk) 14:27, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

So far as I can tell, the only reason we even list that Japanese Brawl tiers is because they use a different stage list with major effects on character viability. Miles (talk) 14:30, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

That holds true in Smash 4, too. They generally have the same stagelist as Brawl, as a matter of fact. Nyargleblargle (Talk) 14:32, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

I don't know if bumps are acceptable here, but we need a consensus. Nyargleblargle (Talk) 21:02, 6 May 2015 (EDT)

I say reject until SBR releases theirs. Serpent King (talk) 21:55, 6 May 2015 (EDT)

I reject too. Not only is this not made by SBR, but it's also outdated. Diddy Kong should be nowhere near the top now because of his recent nerfs and there's the absence of Mewtwo. Bulbaboy (talk) 23:07, 6 May 2015 (EDT)

Mii brawler seems to be missing too. Serpent King (talk) 01:13, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

D (High) Laikue (talk | contribs) 01:56, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

(reset indent) Well would you look at that. Serpent King (talk) 02:45, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

At this rate, I don't even know if the SBR can even release a tier list, what with all the updates with balances, DLC, etc.. Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura 06:51, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

I think it may be too hard for them, these patches and DLC are coming rapidly, so it's to hard to judge a tier list, in other words, the metagame's become confusing. Nintenzilla (talk) 09:07, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

With Mewtwo having just been released, Lucas on the way, the Roy and Ryu thing still being up in the air, and the recent balance patch, it's going to be a while before we get one, if at all 73MPL4R Only the dead have seen the end of war 09:13, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

Not to mention the two other DLC characters that may be coming. In fact, it could be years perhaps, depending on how they release of course. Nintenzilla (talk) 09:14, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

That does not mean that we should adopt a list from whoever thinks to make one. Still Reject Serpent King (talk) 09:45, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

On an irrelevant note, I bet that if it wasn't for the DLCs and patches, I bet we could of gotten an SBR Smash 4 tier list last month ago with either Diddy Kong or Rosalina toping the tier list. Dots (talk) The Sandvich 10:02, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

Worth a shot, but maybe I can step up and make a tier list for us to temporarily use until SBR makes one? My brother, me, and a few friends of mine all play Smash competitively, and even run our own tournaments, so we have a good concept of what we're seeing in the characters, so if you guys like the idea, I can talk to Miles if he doesn't reply here and see what he thinks. Bulbaboy (talk) 12:07, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

This page only uses SBR tier lists based on the US metagame. That's not really something I think should be changed. Miles (talk) 12:17, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

That's what I figured. Worth a shot though. Bulbaboy (talk) 12:28, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

New 64 tier list, 1111111111111111

It'll be posted by shortly by myself/Pidge --PPS KoRo, King of Smash 64 Knowledge, and bad grammar....and bad puns (talk) 20:19, 12 May 2015 (EDT)

Wherever you got it from, it's not official. SBR purposely stopped making tier lists for SSB64 because 1: The metagame has been pretty much fully developed, and 2: SSB64 is one of the least popular Smash games competitively. Bulbaboy (talk) 22:00, 12 May 2015 (EDT)

Um. He's a member of the Smash backroom. He helped create the tier list. Take a look at this: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/35rxny/a_4_year_update_come_reality_a_new_community_tier/ You'll notice that there are some significant changes. Specifically, Samus jumping four spaces, Mario dropping two, Falcon and Fox swapping, and Jigglypuff rising two. Laikue (talk | contribs) 22:22, 12 May 2015 (EDT)

Oh, I was not aware of that. My apologies. Bulbaboy (talk) 00:54, 13 May 2015 (EDT)

Lol hello. Yeah, I'm a member. In all honesty, the reason why the SBR for 64 ended was simply since people well trolled there and didn't do much (outside of setup a proper rule thread as well as an online ladder.) That is why it was turned into a general discussion thread by me/pidge, as per the ruleset thread as well. In terms of the other things: 1. I wouldn't call this game fully developed, as you can see from recent matches, the changed ruleset, and the soon to be highly changed matchup chart. 2. I wouldn't exactly call it unpopular. It's in fact quite popular, being the most popular smash game in Chile, Peru, and Japan(after Smash 4 with 150+ person tournaments yearly and 50-60 person events monthly.) The biggest 64 events outside of Japan have all happened within the last 2 years. I know it's an old game, but look up more before you post that stuff, plz. --PPS KoRo, King of Smash 64 Knowledge, and bad grammar....and bad puns (talk) 15:32, 20 May 2015 (EDT)

I see, thanks for the info. Apologies once again for my ignorance. Bulbaboy (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2015 (EDT)

NEW MELEE TIERS LIST

This tiers list was made over the course of 12 days with the help of redditors /u/scrubjr /u/scrubers /u/ReinDance /u/A_Waskawy_Wabit /u/Pokepen /u/Thebestaround555 /u/goatlink /u/my-name-is- /u/seanbeanskiller /u/spectremagic /u/upvotegod98 /u/vexoskeleton Here it is. Text version: Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik | Puff, Captain Falcon, Peach | Ice Climbers, Samus, Pikachu, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Yoshi | Ganondorf, Mario, Young Link, Link, Donkey Kong | Mr. Game & Watch, Roy, Ness, Pichu, Mewtwo, Zelda, Kirby, Bowser. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrubjr (talk • contribs) 01:22, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

We report tier lists from one source only: SBR Serpent∞King (talk) 01:22, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

But Smash Backroom was closed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrubjr (talk • contribs) 01:28, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Right. We still are not taking tier lists from outside sources though. Just the way it is for the time being. Also, please remember to sign your comments. Serpent∞King (talk) 01:28, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to chime in, top players are apparently working on a new tier list, so when that's released we'll probably use that. Laikue (talk | contribs) 16:27, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

He's a new tier list from Smashboards: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-2015-melee-tier-list-community-lists-released.425523/ ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) is made in America 11:42, 10 December 2015 (EST)

Should we report anything about this? ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) is a never lover boy 11:56, 10 December 2015 (EST)

Of course. This is the official backroom tier list, no? Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 12:38, 10 December 2015 (EST)

So...why didn't we add the tier list? John PK SMAAAASH!! 13:39, 10 December 2015 (EST)

Nyargle did, but it's not an official Backroom tier list. Disaster Flare (talk) 13:39, 10 December 2015 (EST)

Hmm, does the Backroom intend to continue making tier lists? John PK SMAAAASH!! 13:44, 10 December 2015 (EST)

As far as I know, no. Disaster Flare (talk) 13:45, 10 December 2015 (EST)

In that case, I feel we should accept the next most relevant tier list. But I guess we should see what other people think. The most recent tier list we have on the page is outdated and the new one is not that great either imo, so I don't really know. John PK SMAAAASH!! 13:48, 10 December 2015 (EST)

All I saw was it's from Smashboards, which is the tier list we usually report. ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) is made in America 13:55, 10 December 2015 (EST)

The details are here. This list was based on votes from 24 top players and is deemed "official" by Smashboards, which seems close enough to a backroom list to me. If we accepted a community list for Smash 64, I think we can accept this. Zyrac (talk) 14:52, 10 December 2015 (EST)

Okay, it definitely seems legitimate now. John PK SMAAAASH!! 15:01, 10 December 2015 (EST)

I'll agree to that. Disaster Flare (talk) 15:05, 10 December 2015 (EST)

Yeah, if the Backroom isn't making any more tier lists, this will have to be it. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 16:09, 10 December 2015 (EST)

Even if this could be the "official next" tier list, I highly doubt that Fox should deserve his own tier on the top. Sure he's the best in the game but not broken. Dots (talk) The Dandy 17:48, 10 December 2015 (EST)

Just because a character has their own tier doesn't mean they're broken. Disaster Flare (talk) 17:49, 10 December 2015 (EST)

Well even if Fox is not broken, he sure is well above the rest of the cast then. Dots (talk) The Piano 17:56, 10 December 2015 (EST)

First Official Smash 4 Tier List (without Corrin and Bayonetta)

http://smashboards.com/threads/first-official-4br-smash-for-wii-u-tier-list.429817/ Jdcomix (talk) 19:30, 1 February 2016 (EDT)

Project M tier list

Hi guys. So, we have a tier list for Project M that was made about two months ago. Are we going to include this? It was made similar to the fashion that Smash Backroom tier lists are made, with top players around the world. More information is here: http://pmunderground.net/index.php/component/content/article/8-news/12-pmu-character-tier-list-1-0?Itemid=103

AtomicArmageddon (talk) 00:41, 14 February 2016 (EST)

We have Template:PMTiers, but I am not sure if there is any intention of using it. Probably not though, as PM is supposed to be restricted to Project M, it's character pages, tournaments, and smashers. Serpent King 00:59, 14 February 2016 (EST)

Bias?

I feel this article is heavily pro-tier biased, which isn't what a wiki is supposed to do. even the Wikipedia articles for the Nazis and Donald Trump lack bias if I remember correctly. 81.134.202.2 07:15, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

It would be appreciated if you could be more specific. There is a section over tier controversy, but there is almost no question that some characters are better than others. What "bias" are you seeing? RobSir zx 07:51, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

it's a article about tiers, you think that we are going to criticise the tier on tier article? Poultry(talk) the Team Liquid 09:41, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

Except it's not a mere opinion that "tiers exist," it's a fact that some characters are more competitively viable and produce better tournament results than others. This is not comparable to a Wikipedia article saying that "Donald Trump would be a bad President." Compare this to an article about the spherical nature of the Earth including a section dispelling the controversy among flat-Earth believers. Saying stuff like "Tiers are stupid" or "Tiers are bad for the Smash community" would certainly be opinionated bias, but saying something like "Tiers exist" is a widely accepted fact. Awesome Cardinal 2000 10:09, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

Lets just dont talk about this because there is a lot of giant arguments in the other 7 ARCHIVES Poultry(talk) the Team Liquid 10:16, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

@IP What bias? I see nothing but facts. In fact, casual players shouldn't even be viewing these pages.

@Poultry I know you trying to be admin, but that's not the way to settle disputes. Penro 10:26, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

Saying stuff like "Casual players shouldn't even be viewing these pages" without even explaining your reasoning is just as poor a way of settling disputes. Awesome Cardinal 2000 11:31, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

I will admit that i am a tier supporter, but this argument has been done too many times! also i agree with ac2k with what you said to the IP Poultry(talk) the Team Liquid 11:55, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

Just looking at this section, I honestly don't see how this article is biased. We simply report facts about a tier list here. But of course, the talk page for the tier list page will always have subjective arguments. Hmm. Dots (talk) The Kirby 15:56, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

Project M 3.6 Tier List?

Should we add the Project M 3.6 Tier List to this page? Yoshifan 34567 (talk) 10:26, 17 April 2016 (EDT)

I think we should Poultry(talk) the Team Liquid 10:36, 17 April 2016 (EDT)

I object. Project M should have its own things on its own pages. Dots (talk) The Restful 15:31, 17 April 2016 (EDT)

Controversy Section Bloat

First of all, I'd like to note that technically speaking, Bayonetta has not won a national mentioned on our Wiki yet. This got corrected pretty fast, but I'd just like to mention that we really shouldn't be mentioning results for her or Corrin to begin with when the tier list is significantly outdated in relationship to them because of how it lacks their presence to begin with.

Second of all, that paragraph is honestly filled with a bunch of unnecessary examples. We only need a few examples to prove that yes, high tiered characters are often the victors of Smash tournaments. You could prove that point with 2-3 examples in the section for each game.

Third of all (who in the hell even says that), the section needs to be changed up to mention the Smash 4 patches. Honestly, a simple note in the first paragraph would probably suffice, along with additions in the third paragraph that notes how the nerfing/buffing patterns can change up the metagame (we mention Diddy Kong as a common winner, but fail to note that he's not in his prime days anymore).

I bring this up on the talk page instead of just editing it in for two reasons; I don't pay attention to Smash 4 meta in general, and my primary game revolves around significant balance patches that arrive every 3-6 months. Hell if I know whether or not the patches have shaken things up that much to make a difference. Same goes with whether or not the tier list examples for Smash 4 could still be considered truly relevant, especially with the shake ups in the top 3 placements for the 2016 national tournaments. MegaTron1 22:33, 9 May 2016 (EDT)

It's still very wordy, but I hope I helped somewhat. Gold 03:52, 10 May 2016 (EDT)

Official Brazilian tier list for Smash 4

Looks like a Back Room tier list based on match-ups was created in Brazil.

http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-tier-list-v1-0-competitive-impressions.429826/page-562#post-21346782

http://1upsmash.com/topic/8580370/1/

I guess we better create a page, template or whatever like for Melee's Brazilian tier list. And what about Template:Infobox Character? -- Ethan(Discussion) 15:45, 26 July 2016 (EDT)

Apparently this isn't a Back Room tier list. BR stands for Brazil and Brazil apparently has no Smash 4 Back Room right now. I believe this is official. Is it worthy to be on the wiki? -- Ethan(Discussion) 16:31, 26 July 2016 (EDT)

Official Project M 3.6 Tier list

The Project M Backroom and PM Underground recently released a second official tier list (as of 21 July 2016) here: http://pmunderground.net/index.php/articles/9-articles/45-introducing-the-new-pmbr-and-pm-tier-list-2. I think we should add a section for Project M, in between Brawl and Smash 4. Project M is, after all, a widely played Smash Bros. game, more widely played than Brawl, which is listed here. Hydrodynamic (talk) 23:53, 27 July 2016 (EDT)

Sorry, no dice. Consensus here is that we only have the main Project M page and separate character analysis pages, and that's only because it's big. Content pertaining to Brawl mods, including PM, should not be on other mainspace pages. --Timson622222 (talk) 00:09, 28 July 2016 (EDT)

Bayonetta as an argument for tiers existing

This part looks a little out of place; I think a better example would be Meta Knight taking so many tournaments in Brawl instead of Bayonetta carrying players. I'm not denying that she was overpowered (she most definitely was better than most characters), but one could deduct that it wasn't her being a better character, just having a ridiculously low skill floor. Meta Knight, on the other hand, still consistently wins tournaments for Brawl. KuroKagami (talk) 17:41, 4 August 2016 (EDT)

Another Potential Backroom List

Would this be considered an official list? Laniv (talk) 14:05, 22 August 2016 (EDT)

Validity of tier lists on Toon Link...

I thought discussing this at Toon Link wasn't appropriate, so I'm posting here...

• "In gaming, a tier list is a list that ranks all characters based on the strength of their fighting abilities and their potential to win matches under tournament conditions, assuming equal skill on the part of each player."

• From Toon Link (SSB4): "...since Hyuga has been banned from various tournaments as of EVO 2016 and subsequently announced his retirement from competitive play, it is unclear how his absence will affect Toon Link's tier ranking. "

Aren't these two statements problematic? 23.27.245.161 14:27, 24 September 2016 (EDT)