Talk:Tier list/Archive 2
Let's settle this like civil people.
Okay. How about this. Do you think Nintendo wanted to make characters that are better than the best, and others worse? If they wanted that, then people would only flock to the games with the best characters. So, in that sense, tiers are counter-productive to Nintendo's sales. I'm not saying we should take the whole thing off, (even though I personally would like that) I'm simply saying that there can be negative effects not just on people like me who don't like tiers. XXXXX 15:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- It's a rare day when i actually feel the tiers are right. Since so many people are bent over how tiers are real or not consider what XXXXX Just said ( Which by the way is very true and I wouldn't mind the tiers going away either ) and consider that just because a tiers say one chracter is the best that doesn't mean that character is the best for your play style. People swear up and down Fox is the best character in melee, he may be for the people who use him ALL THE TIME. I personally don't care for tiers, even after i saw that fox and falco were the "best" in melee i still used some of the "worst" characters and played fine ( Kirby, link, roy and ganondorf) and i used one of the better characters before i even knew their was a tier ( marth ). People play the SSBs differently so tiers can't really firmly say one character is better than the rest since it doesn't include the PLAYERS playstyle. If i'm a "noob" for saying what i think concerning tiers, fine but then i guess just about everyone else is too since i'm not the first to say my opinion, on this page alone. Carbonkirby 16:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- I know what you mean. These Tiers, people say that they assume the charecters are being played to their full potential, but if two players were playing against eachother, both playing the charecters to full potential, wouldn't the match be endless? Each player would be perfectly dodging and countering avery attack. Zenzpore 20:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Who cares? Rexdawn 04:03, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I cant believe anybody here really cares about tiers forming. So what if all the best people use Ike or snake or fox? that sure as hell won't stop me owning it up with Lucario. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs) 21:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
CarbonKirby, EXACTLY! I've been arguing that for years. Who cares if the best players main Fox and Falco and all of those people. Does that make the CHARACTER good? Heck no! They compare videos of like 5-year olds playing Pikachu with 27-year olds playing Fox and automatically assume Fox is better. User:Max2/Sig —Preceding unsigned comment added by Max2 (talk • contribs) 20:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I mean, so you like Fox. Big whoop. You're still gonna get owned by a person playing Jigglypuff. (Okay, Jigglypuff is the one exception, but stay with me now) They're all reasonably equal. Five levels of tiers?! You must be joking. Even three level tiers are making a big deal. We should make a petition on the site, and when we get enough votes, we can delete it. Not quite like the deletion page. We should go around on users' talk pages and ask the to sign. XXXXX (talk) 16:16, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Hey, I have an idea for a tier list! Good and Not Good (or Bad). Place everyone that's balanced in Good, and everyone that didn't quite make it to Not Good. Seriously, if the same kind of tier list used in the previous two games, I would expect the majority of the character list to be in the Top and High tiers, and very few in the bottom tier. Seriously though, I have nothing against tiers at all, I just think my version would be a LOT simpler. Also, Snake and Meta Knight aren't the ONLY two best characters... they can still be owned by characters such as Ike, Wolf, and many others. --ACDCGAMER (talk) 00:50, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I dissagree with what XXXXX 1st said. It's a wee bit tricky to make a fighting game with 39 different characters and not expect tiers to form. But I do agree with CarbonKirby that it depends partly on the certain people's playstyles. In Melee, I mained DK, and I did pretty darn well. And a couple of people I know are just awesome with Link. The point is, even if tiers do exist, don't let that change your mind about maining Pichu. If he fits your playstyle, use him, instead of trying to adapt to Fox.Ari 16:30, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
All tiers ever do is cause arguments and competition. There is no way that Nintendo wanted this to happen. We should just say that tiers don't exist, never did, and leave it at that.Captain Monty (talk) 17:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
SSBB tier list
Can some get a link or some type of proof OTHER than someones's word on whether or not this is really the tier list? How do we know this wasn't created just to start more fighting? and just because if it was leaked doesn't mean it's final. Prove it is final in the back room somehow otherwise it's coming down as unverified info. Carbonkirby 18:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm for removal; until the Back Room makes a post on the subject in the general area, then anything up until that point is in especial flux. --Sky (t · c · w) 20:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks to anyone who removed the tier ranks. I thought i had gotten them all >.> Carbonkirby 23:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Ganondorf is a good character in melee. if you get hit on the ground at 100% you're dead and its easy to land if you're careful. killermarth.5333 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk • contribs) 21:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Isn't this section on Brawl, not Melee?
- The entire list hasn't been flushed out, but from what I've seen, it's pretty clear that Metaknight and Snake are the two best characters. 188.8.131.52 05:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? Everybody says that, and the only reason is because they're popular characters with cool moves, and since their popular, people will use them and do well with them, virtually ignoring every other character! It's the the same with Captain Falcon! That's why people think Jigglypuff and Yoshi suck, because nobody bothers using them like they do Meta Knight, Snake, or Falcon! Ari 21:16, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
- Gotta agree with you. Ari 15:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Think about it, the better you think you are, the better you become, if you think that Fox owns, against Yoshi than you will own, but really , tiers are garbage, your skill, not the characers potential, is all that matters. That, and a bunch of random events that may or may take place. Captain Monty (talk) 01:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- The characters are really balanced. My Custom Brawl Tier List is constantly changing. But I still think that one will come out eventually. --Riko (talk) 18:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- Tiers exist! Lets take the match-up Marth vs. Ike. Marth is more on speed, Ike is more on power. Marth is light, but Ike is heavy. Marth could run in circles around Ike and run after an attack, and stay in one spot while Ike tries to catch up to him, and Marth could use his powerful Forward Smash. After Ike hits the ledge, Marth could edge-guard him until he dies, as Ike's recovery is weak. However, if a professional Ike player played against a rookie Marth player, I would put take my chances on the Ike. Tiers only have things to do with characters' differences. In my Tier list, I put Ike at the bottom for being slow, having slow attacks, having weak recovery, and overall being a bad character! So as you can see, I'm a pro-tier. ParaGoomba348 (talk) 14:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- As you know, I agree that Marth is a stud and Ike ain't that good. But I would like to point out that tiers are NOT based on individual matchups, but on a complete ranking against all characters. For example, Marth was a counter to Fox, but Fox was a counter to many more characters, so Fox was higher tier. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 16:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I keep thinking which characters are best, but I keep realizing how balanced it is. I would say snake is up there though... 1 on 1, he is very hard to play on team battles though. - Ashran111 (talk) 03:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not everyone but way back when I never looked at SSB64 in a competetive way to the point of tiers over which were goood and bad. The only reason I even discuss tiers now because I stumbled across the SSBM tier a while ago( not saying I agree with it ). Out of curiousity, why do you hate melee? Carbonkirby (talk) 22:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Um, well for one I hated/still hate the terrible gamecube controller, i thought all those clones were stupid, adding characters from games no one has ever played (I like smash because of the nostalgic appeal), too many new items, etc. They basically got rid of the simplicity of ssb64, which was its #1 appeal. Oh, and dynamic, retarded maps. - Ashran111 (talk) 00:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- I like ssb64 more, but i like how clones are gone, better maps, you can turn off crappy maps (from random), and better characters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashran111 (talk • contribs) 19:38, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I didn't like the GC controller at first but i'd rather use it than try to remember the controls being crammed onto the wiimote/nunchuck ( and I know some folk don't like that TOO DANG BAD ). The clones i really were annoyed by were the marth/roy ones ( yes I call them clones and all the ranting in the forums ain't going to change my view ). And yeah the whole simplicity was dead and gone along with simple maps but i guess i sorta expected that part. Carbonkirby (talk) 04:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Maps like big blue or w/e, the one where you start on the flying boat and the map moves clockwise, etc were so bad. and ya, I hate the GC controller, but i use it instead of nunchuck/wiimote - Ashran111 (talk) 23:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
To Add My Opinion
Hmmm. I personally think it is officially impossible to make smash officially even for all characters. Tough luck but its not due to how you play against others. It is overall for tournaments and how good people have become for certain characters. Specifically for each tier list. I think that the SSB tier list Should be the same as its been. Even though I PERSONALLY think that Samus and Link are better than DK/Luigi, it is not my opinion. Many people say that Ness can be better than pikachu but Isai is the top person so of course pikachu is on top (not like melee where M2K uses Marth and he is the top player technically but fox is the top character.) Also, for people who say the game was balanced: Pikachu had overly powerful aerials, great throws, and the only recovery that is actually good (yes, Ness’s and Kirby’s can be destroyed), Ness had a good recovery as well and incredibly quick chainable aerials, and Kirby was just good, while characters like Link, DK, and Samus were not used that often and had recoveries that were easily edgeguarded, I am officially an online Yoshi pro in smash 64 and I can beat many falcons but overall Falcon is ranked higher than Yoshi. If people played perfect, fox and ness would be at the top with yoshi close behind because of DJC and perfect shine canceling. However, people DON'T. For melee It should be the tier list decided by the Back Room of Smashboards, simply because the majority of top melee players in the world are on the Back Room of Smashboards. The game has its own problems with characters being more powerful. I can guess that if people perfected shining and djc’ing, m2, ness, yoshi, peach, fox, and falco would be at the top (not in any order). However, people do NOT play perfectly. It is by how people can play now, not perfect, and not how you play overall vs your friends. For brawl The metagame in brawl will be evolving and it is impossible to tell what chars will be on top. The game is a lot more balanced but please explain why Ganondorf has the potential overall compared Snake currently. The top characters in brawl will be better than others. Snake has overpowered tilts and very good tactics. Metaknight is just good with smashes, tilts, and aerials, and a good recovery to boot. ROB has a great recovery and very good combo able aerials. Marth is still basically the same but a bit weaker. IC”s have overpowered grabs and Toon Link has incredible aerials. Fox has Aerial Shine Cancels, Falco/D3 has gimping chain grabs, and Wolf is good. But when it comes to lower tiers to higher, there will be a difference overall. Ganondorf is slow and has no approach moves for a slow character (DK/Ike have aerials). Most characters like Sonic have to struggle to get a kill. Wait for the “official” tier list that will occur in a year from when brawl came out (according to a post on Smashboards) or go by the All Is Brawl tier list now and announce that the list is there but not official.
OVERALL: There shouldn’t be a tier list for brawl, YET. The game has not evolved yet The melee one should be the one from Smashboards and the Smash 64 one also from there. Wait for the official one and then complain and we’ll try to resolve it. User:KoRoBeNiKi —Preceding unsigned comment added by KoRoBeNiKi (talk • contribs) 19:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
CONTROVERSIAL NESS PLACING IN TOP TIER: Many, many people (including top smashers) disagree that Ness is top tier. He should be included within fox and Falcon due to his very easy to intercept recovery, and so easy to edgeguard against.
- CONTROVERSIAL NESS PLACING IN TOP TIER: Many, many people (including top smashers) disagree that Ness is top tier. He should be included within fox and Falcon due to his very easy to intercept recovery, and so easy to edgeguard against.
Current List for Brawl
You see that list in the "SSBB Tier List" section? I have three things to say:
- Snake is NOT the best.
- C. Falcon is NOT the worst.
- I disagree with the list in general.
Now, this is just my opinion, and if you want my reasoning for why I think this, feel free to ask. You probably won't pay attention to my opinion, but that's okay as well. - GalaxiaD (talk) 05:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
- Ask/say this kind of stuff on the forums. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:08, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
- There's really no other way. And it wasn't just the tier list. People kept adding things about how (they think) tiers won't be important. Most of these people have never even watched a game of competitive smash and didn't even understand what they were talking about. It was also the subject of a lot of vandalism. When an official and stable tier list comes out, we'll add it and maybe see if this page can go back to semi-protection... Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:20, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree with GalaxiaD. I know Snake is not the best. I know Captain Falcon is not the worst. I liked where Marth was and Ike (poor Ike). Mainly because Ike's no good. ParaGoomba348 (talk) 14:53, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
i also agree with with GalaxiaD i like his tier list that he made but it would be better if there was no tier list
Hey guys! I know it can be my fault this confussion, but that list isn't a tier list it's a ranking based over tournaments placing. An, Snake is at the top because alot of players win tournaments with him, and Captain Falcon was (because he lifted up in the list a little) at the bottom because not much people wins tournaments with him.--Jigglypuff is God (talk) 14:49, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
My Tier Opinion
1. Shouldn't Pokemon Trainer as a whole be rated instead of each his Pokemon separately?
2. PEACH CAN FLOAT. EF EL O AY TEE. FLOAT. Yet many people consider her the worst. Float 1st, then talk.
- 1. The Trainer himself doesn't fight. The Pokemon do, and since they're all very different, they should be counted seperately.
- 2. Yes, Peach can float, but recovery isn't everything.
- 1. However, when playing as Pokemon Trainer, you need to know how to use all of Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon, not just Charizard or Squirtle.
- 2. Recovery isn't everything, but it still counts for a lot.
- 3. I'm not saying I specifically use Ike, I'm just saying some people do, and they more than Kirby. But I hardly see people using the Kongs, R.O.B., the Mario guys, or Yoshi. Ari 12:57, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Why not do both with Red? If Squirtle happens to be better than Ivysaur, that should be mentioned. But if you die, then you are forced to use the next Pokemon in the cycle. Red's Pokemon as seperate on tiers and all of Red's Pokemon as a whole should both be counted for.
SSBB Tier List sentence...
...should emphasize that WHILE Tiers (which unfotunately DO exist) will form in SSBB, they will have MUCH LESS impact than it did in the games before.
SSBM: Fox --------------------------------------------- Yoshi
SSBB: Snake ----- Yoshi
See what I mean? It's entirely possible now to beat a top tier character with a bottom tier character, it just takes a wee bit more skill than the other player. --184.108.40.206 11:30, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
It was always possible to beat a human controlled Fox with a bottom tier character such as Yoshi and Mewtwo in Melee and Pikachu can be beat with Link in 64. But I agree that tiers will have less impact, because Sakurai put more effort into balancing the characters in Brawl than in Melee. --TStick (talk) 15:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
One, I protected the page specifically so that people couldn't put up unverified claims like that. Two, read David Sirlin's writing on balancing multilayer games. He proves that it is impossible. Three, Yoshi has never been the last tier character. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 17:21, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Four.Remember that tiers are mostly based on and for Professionals and well rounded amateurs.So its not only about skill but mindgames as well.And Snake is in no way going to be the top tier in the backroom's tier list, and if he is I'm pretty sure half of the smash community is gonna go on a rampage and undoubtedly make their own tier list. - Hatake91 (talk) 15:59, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I guess that's true, but most of the comments on Smashboards, Gamefaqs, and YouTube are basically accepting Snake being the best as fact, which worries me. I don't like the direction they're going in. - GalaxiaD (talk) 18:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, let's wait what have to say the pros. Snake have chances of being Top Tier. I don't like him, but it's intelligent to say that Snake had been owning the tournament scene. I mean, who can somebody that wins alot more than the others ends as middle tier, excuse me but that doesn't make any sense. And GalaxiaD, Smashboards, Gamefaqs and YouTube are the best Smashing forums. If they choose an option, I'm pretty sure it will be the right one. If you don't diasgree, leave your opinion, but remember, it's just an opinion, and there is no good or wrong opinions, only different. --Jigglypuff is God (talk) 22:37, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
The only reason Snake wins so many tournaments is because so many people use him and stick with him. Now, if people were this dedicated with Jigglypuff... Ari 15:09, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
You still don't get it, do you. Tiers don't exist. It's just an excuse made up to explain why more people should play with specific characters. Tier destroy eactly what smash brothers was made for.Having fun,no to prove who is best out of all of them.Captain Monty (talk) 17:06, 23 August 2008 (UTC)