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Time to reach a decision once and for all:Pros and Cons of every possible symbol

This is a closed discussion about a failed proposed change on SmashWiki. It remains for archival purposes.

I've been reading this talk page a lot recently, and I know there was a lot of dissent after the initial debate was forced closed, to the point where several users would act outside of the decision to either acknowledge the current placeholder as unofficial on the series symbol page or by changing the symbols in the infoboxes. While yes, this has been a bloated discussion, the current decision has failed to satisfy multiple users, which makes reopening this valid. I kind of regret opening this can of worms, but thinking back on it, the current placeholder had multiple egregious readability issues, and the most important thing for a wiki is readability. It's my fault that this discussion reopened, so it's my job to analyze everything if I really want a change, and my responsibility that an agreed decision is met. I'm neutral to any of the options listed below, as they all have pros and cons, but something should change.

Before I give pros and cons to every possible option I can think of, I want to address two users who were disrespectful of the spirit of the debate. I do not mean these as personal attacks; I think both of you had valid points. But your methods have actively harmed what oherwise should have been a calm discussion.

• SeanWheeler constantly insisted on changing it to the ellipsis, to the point where he tried to drag in a blocked user to this discussion. Toomai constantly claimed that no new arguments were being brought to the table, when in reality, there were some legitimately new arguments brought in by Rdrfc and Capstalker. SeanWheeler, while I agree with many of your arguments, I suggest you fix your methods and wording; if you and Lou Cena didn't try to to put words in other peoples' mouths, this might have initially succeeded. Even in the initial debate, you claimed that every argument was debunked, when in reality you were only focusing on Toomai's and Miles' arguments. There were far more than 3-4 users who did not seem completely satisfied, but you and a few other pro-change people dragged this subject to multiple talk pages, causing everyone else pro-change to be drowned out by comparison.

• Toomai, I would suggest reading each user's counterpoint carefully; while you did counter SeanWheeler's arguments, you did not do so with Rdrfc and Captstalker, who had new arguments. I would not be surprised if you glossed over them because you were focused on tackling SeanWheeler. You said being loud does not make you correct, but if I'm being honest, being too quiet about it is almost as bad. I understand that you care for the readability of the wiki, but by doing so you isolated this wiki's terminology with those of the general fanbase. Sure, 3-4 users were primarily complaining, but you have to think of what people think outside of the wiki too.

What I will be doing below is giving a summary of every possible option, and the pros and cons of each one. I know that these are mainly repeats of what has been said before, but that's the only way I can properly describe the pros and cons of each symbol/lack thereof.

• 1. The Melee Battlefield symbol: This is already being used, and several admins did not think there had to be any change. However, people who don't know this symbol's usage would be confused on if it real (like I did initially), while those who do know wonder why this is being used if the context does not fit. It is barely noticeable in game, though it is on a competitively legal stage on the most popular game in the franchise spectator-wise. The low visibility does let it be reasonably claimed to be an "everything else" symbol, but the general abstractness of it means that it is difficult to comprehend this as "everything else". Also, as Rdrfc best put it, a wiki should not ignore official terminology that has been adopted by the entire community just because a few admins of the wiki think the terms they made up sound better and/or are more descriptive. That goes directly against SW:UNOFFICIAL. I'll go over the fact that the official symbol is only in Ultimate, but the current placeholder is only in Melee, which logically makes applying it to any piece of minor series content that debuted after Melee

• 2. The official symbol: While preferably, we should use the official symbol, Smashwiki is not official. However, it is not unknown that this is the official symbol; youtube OST rips use this symbol, and particularly popular ones like Megalovania and Floral Fury would make this knowledge commonplace. Additionally, because of how small this symbol is, it can potentially look like misplaced text on a small computer or a phone on desktop mode. An ellipsis is also usually an icon for a menu extension, though it should be noted that those tend to be in the corners of infoboxes instead of in the center. As Capstalker best put it, clicking on it would take them to the file page instead of a menu, which would be a dead giveaway of its purpose, and it is unlikely that a reader will make the same mistake twice. There is the fact that this is exclusive to Ultimate. The wiki switched Snake's symbol when it changed, and nearly every minor series content page is represented in Ultimate, so there would be no reason not to backpedal when we have done so already. However, there are a few pieces of minor series content that are not in Ultimate, which does make backpedaling in this case questionable.

• 3. The Wii U Custom Stages symbol: Unlike the Battlefield symbol, which is in the infobox of Battlefield (SSBM), this symbol is not currently used in any infobox. While it is also unofficial, custom stages can be made into anything, including content of minor series. However. This shares the same problems that Rdrfc mentioned earlier; we shouldn't make up meaning just because wiki users think it's more descriptive when it has jot been accepted by the rest of the community. Using either this or the Battlefield symbol would isolate this wiki from the rest of the community.

• 4. No symbol at all: Not having a symbol in the infobox would be the most neutral solution. It doesn't have the readability issues of the official symbol, the abstractness of the current placeholder, and it wouldn't be falsely adopting a term that has been accepted by the rest of the community. Another pro of this is that the official symbol is not used everywhere; until Ultimate, there was no official symbol, and even the spirit lists in Ultimate do not use one, just the tram setup. However, doing this would also make the formatting of infoboxes of minor series content inconsistent with other pages. It could also lead into the problem of a new reader thinking something is supposed to go there, when there really isn't supposed to.

• 5. Blank symbol: This has the exact same pros as option 4, but there are different cons. While none of the cons of option 4 apply to option 5, having a blank image would cause unnecessary space between the image and the rest of the infobox. If it is used in table lists like the DLC pages, this causes the text to be off-centered in an ugly fashion. Another con of this is that

I don't want this to be a vote, nor do I want this to be a 3 part debate like the one on the archive. Please, read everything carefully, and do not type anything until you have read everything. I would suggest looking at the sections above, the archive, and Talk:Series symbol if something is still missing. Thank you for reading. Have a nice day everybody! 72.203.118.154 04:58, February 22, 2020 (EST)

So I read your comment and you already explained the pros and cons of each option, so I'll just give my opinion on this: Battlefield > Custom stages > no symbol > ellipses > blank symbol. Here are my pros and cons for each option:

1. Battlefield: has been used for a long time and has been set as the other series placeholder. It fits with the common design of symbols and has been used in very minor contexts, and so I believe it somewhat does its job of representing the other series, albiet still kinda poorly. However, because it is also used on Battlefield (SSBM)'s page, it can confuse readers thinking it was placed on Battlefield by mistake, or readers will question why we're using a symbol used for a Smash-original stage to represent the other series.

2. ellipses: The "official" symbol. In Ultimate it's used to represent minor universes for sound test and spirits, do that's the only reason I can give to use it. However, the appearence of the symbol is out of place compared to other symbols and its meaning is easily misinterpreted: Because of its small size (which is another issue) and literally being ellipses, it looks like misplaced text or a menu extension button. Also I'd like to mention that saying the meaning of Battlefield's symbol being unclear doesn't necessarily give a reason to use the ellipses, rather to not use Battlefield. Even though Battlefield doesn't do the best job at representing minor universes, the ellipses does worse.

3. Wii U custom stages: The appearence looks like something that can be used to represent miscellaneous universes. However the context is incorrect: Because it's the symbol used for custom stages in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, readers will think it was placed on the page by mistake because it was intended to be used for custom stages.

4. No symbol: I initially intended it to be as a "last resort", however there is some validity fir doing this: having no symbol will get the idea that because there is nothing there it represents minor universes. However like it was mentioned before, it will make the format with the infoboxes inconsistant and make readers think something is supposed to go there, but in reality there isn't.

5. Blank image: Same as 4 but with another flaw: the extra space due to the blank image will cause a gap in the infoboxes that can make the con with 4 more obvious. OmegαToαd64 01:27, February 26, 2020 (EST)

For me, it would be Ellipsis > No Symbol > Blank Symbol > Custom Stages > Battlefield. Opinions about how the ellipsis looks are very subjective. And I don't think it's that out of place with Metal Gear's exclamation point, Final Fantasy's "FF" or Mega Man's generic gear. Has anyone new actually confused a series symbol for a drop-down menu? And the ellipsis was used for so many series with primary spirits and music. But if we really can't use the ellipsis, my second favored option would be to just have no symbol there. Since the ellipsis only existed in Ultimate and even then you'd only see it when viewing your party in Adventure Mode, and everywhere else there's an absence of a symbol for Other series, maybe we could match the game that way. Maybe we don't need a placeholder symbol taking up an infobox. The blank image? A blank image would be useless. And we wouldn't be able to tell if it's even there unless we go to edit mode. And if it's placed in an infobox, that would be a lot of empty space. But it's better than misusing the Custom Stages symbol or Battlefield. Custom Stages is custom stages. But at least we don't have a page that used the Custom Stages symbol in an infobox. In fact I get why it was suggested because that symbol isn't really used anywhere outside the Series symbol page. The Battlefield symbol was used as our miscellaneous symbol for almost a decade but I never could agree with the usage of a Smash original stage's symbol for the other series. Especially as other users pointed out how it confuses readers about Battlefield and how the point about the ellipsis being Ultimate exclusive just wouldn't hold up with a Melee exclusive stage's symbol. SeanWheeler (talk) 18:06, February 26, 2020 (EST)

For the record, I don't care what happens, as long as something changes. They're all bad options, but the worst cons just so happen to be on what is currently being used (even after reading this discussion; 80% of the anti-change arguments were to not use the official one, and the other 20% either apply to the current symbol as well or are covered by the other options). I just don't want others to make the same mistake I did. I thought it was fake at first, and knowing its actual usage, it makes even less sense. 72.203.118.154 22:55, February 28, 2020 (EST)

As the original proponent of dropping placeholder symbols, I have realized that while it works perfectly fine in infoboxes, this could possibly cause issues in lists used on pages like List of composers. Aside from that, since I have already given my opinion about why we should follow the rest of the community in adopting official icons, I want to address OmegaToad64's concerns about readability of the ellipsis. Stylistically, series symbols are all over the place, and there are also some fairly generic ones like Mega Man's cog which vaguely looks like a settings icon; the only trait that they objectively have in common (ellipsis included) is being gray vector images. Because the ellipsis are also a gray vector icon like every other symbol used on this wiki, it is extremely unlikely, in my opinion, that they could be mistaken for text (which would be black and much smaller) or for a drop down menu (those usually are in the top right corner). I agree that they are a bit ugly and less than ideal, however beggars can't really be choosers. The Battlefield and Custom stages icons are equally bad options in my opinion, the only upside of the Custom Stages icon is that it is currently not used anywhere in the wiki. --Rdrfc (talk) 07:08, February 29, 2020 (EST)

Well, I was looking at tables with single universes in each cell when I thought the tables would look fine without it. Now that you pointed out a list page with multiple universes in a cell, I can see how not using a symbol for some music tracks can mess with the alignment on the table and make it look more of a mess. And there are some music tracks marked with Ultimate's U that have the Battlefield symbol, even though the music collection fully uses the ellipsis for other unlike how Spirits only showed the ellipsis for one screen of viewing the party in Adventure. Not using the ellipsis for Ultimate music is just inexcusable. And I've seen how the ellipsis looks on tables I think it looks fine. And to end the argument about the ellipsis symbol looking like misplaced text, I'm going to type an ellipsis next to the symbol here: ... See how much bigger and higher the symbol is next to the typed dots? If you use the symbol in the middle of the text, you can see how it's floating. Even if you make it smaller to try to disguise it as text, it would just get blurry like this hy does this seem so o to me? I'm never satiied Oh, these symbol puns are fun Oh, why is there space between the text and the symbols? When you didn't hit the spacebar, that should expose a symbol. But I don't see a scenario where anyone would use a symbol in the middle of text outside of my little joke here. And if someone suspects that there's misplaced text where a symbol should be, they can check in edit mode. It's on like , oh I can't find a good pun with Donkey Kong's symbol Okay, I'll stop the puns... SeanWheeler (talk) 19:49, February 29, 2020 (EST)

Alright there's something I've been meaning to mention but it slipped my mind every time. There's another problem I've always had with using the ellipses, now this is more of a pet peeve of mine and probably might not be the best arguement, but I believe there is still some validity in this and I need to mention it.

When looking at the ellipses in the infoboxes it looks like a "loading" icon. Now the chances are probably low, but I can see some people who have never played Ultimate to be staring at it thinking something will open up, before realizing it's actually a symbol. Now as a disclaimer this is in no way to suggest we stay with Battlefield, but rather why I believe the ellipses is not going to work. OmegαToαd the Toαd Wαrrior (B U P) 23:10, March 1, 2020 (EST)

That is a completely valid point. This is why, after giving some thought, the most objective placeholder is no symbol at all. Battlefield fails at conveying its supposed meaning spectacularly, the ellipsis can mean too many things and is tiny, and a blank symbol causes too much blank space. No symbol at all immediately signals that the character is not affiliated with a fighter-based series, rather than after a minute like with using any symbol. Also, several pages, such as Fighting Wire Frames, look completely fine without a symbol in the infobox (though to be fair, that specific page should have the SSB symbol).

As for the usages on tables, some pages, such as Mii Costume, already don't have a symbol, and those also look completely fine. As for DLC pages, where the symbol substitutes as a bullet point, using a regular bullet point should get the job done. 72.203.118.154 23:58, March 1, 2020 (EST)

*sigh*
For the last time, there is no reason to change this. A question was asked, multiple times, and an answer was given; yet, as we see here, the question is still being asked.

You say there are new arguments being brought up, and potentially being ignored. For the sake of everyone, I'm going to respond to ones that particularly stood out to me here.

"How about using no placeholder symbol at all?" -Rdrfc

No. This would look incredibly awkward on character infoboxes. While we are not against listing universes in general with no symbol attached to them, having no symbol in the infobox would be incredibly off-putting and not look good on the wiki.

"SmashWiki might not be official, but that does not mean it is ok to use symbols and other iconografy for contexts completely different from what they were originally meant to, considering also that it causes confusion between pages that use the symbol in its proper official context and others that use it as a placeholder." -Rdrfc

"The reason why people think the ellipsis is better is not that it is official, it's because the meaning of the battlefield symbol is not clear, and that's why people always question the symbol, but the ellipsis can accurately express the meaning of "other"." -Capstalker

Except we've been doing this for years, and only until now has someone decided to raise an eyebrow. The SmashWiki has existed for over ten years.

Now, for the main points brought up by the IP.

"However, people who don't know this symbol's usage would be confused on if it real (like I did initially), while those who do know wonder why this is being used if the context does not fit."

I realize that, while I did mention that we've been using the symbol for years, there are new people coming onto the wiki. However, the new users are also not the only people on the wiki. There are people who came here through Smash 4, Brawl, and even before then when the wiki was first forming, and while things do change over time, this entire userbase is the reason we run on consensus rather than vote-count.

"a wiki should not ignore official terminology that has been adopted by the entire community just because a few admins of the wiki think the terms they made up sound better and/or are more descriptive."

Except we don't. Sure, we could use an update in our terminology, but generally, it's not just "if an admin says no, that means no", because that's not how this wiki works. This wiki does, however, work on the idea of "if an admin says to stop a discussion because it's going nowhere and there's no reason to continue, then it's probably a good idea to stop the discussion and not bring it up again", which is what is being done. This discussion has happened at least three different times right now, with the same things being said, and it getting nowhere with no legitimately good arguments.

"However, it is not unknown that this is the official symbol; youtube OST rips use this symbol, and particularly popular ones like Megalovania and Floral Fury would make this knowledge commonplace."

Yea, and YouTubers can do their own thing, and we can do ours. I'd also like to point out that the same channel that uses the ellipsis for Megalovania and Floral Fury uses the Mii symbol as well, which isn't even used in the sound test. One YouTuber does not represent the entire Smash community.

"though it should be noted that those tend to be in the corners of infoboxes instead of in the center."

Is that a fact? I see tons of dropdowns all the time (many tables on Fandom wikis, for example) that are centered; while the actual extension box may cover the entirety of a row of space, the text is still in the center.

"clicking on it would take them to the file page instead of a menu, which would be a dead giveaway of its purpose, and it is unlikely that a reader will make the same mistake twice."

Except that the user shouldn't have to make that mistake in the first place. All of the confusion can be avoided by not doing this.

"3. The Wii U Custom Stages symbol: Unlike the Battlefield symbol, which is in the infobox of Battlefield (SSBM), this symbol is not currently used in any infobox."

Yea, and there's a reason for that: it has a use that disallows it to be used for external purposes. Sure, so does the Battlefield symbol, but that's also a one-time thing, since the out-of-place catch-all symbol was immediately rectified in the next game. While the custom stages symbol changed from Smash 4 to Ultimate, it still very clearly represents custom stages, and is used as such very clearly.
Additionally, as a general response to 4 and 5 (rather than something specific), both of these are bad ideas; I already mentioned why I don't like 4, and 5 would make it look even more awkward, since, as mentioned, it would be unnecessary space and look horribly bad.

Please note that, once again, this is not the staff saying "no, we don't like this, and we won't let you change it because we're admins." This is us saying "no, this would look bad, and we've given plentiful reasons why, with nothing new or good being added to the table, and we'd like this discussion to stop reappearing every few weeks." Aidan, the Rurouni 00:53, March 2, 2020 (EST)

While Brawl fixed the issue about Battlefield having that unique symbol by replacing it with the Smash symbol, it was redesigned so we needed a separate page, leaving the Melee version of the stage still using the symbol in question. And if we change Melee's Battlefield to use the Smash symbol the other Battlefields use, we'd might as well put the exclamation mark in Snake (SSBB)'s infobox and the modern Poké Ball symbol in Pikachu (SSB)'s page. Clearly we have a reason for preserving the old symbols for older games' pages. And since Takamaru, Sukapon, Sablé Prince, Ray Mk III, Saki Amamiya, Isaac, Starfy, Chibi-Robo, Barbara, Dr. Kawashima, Dillon, Shovel Knight, Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Bomberman, Akira and Cuphead can be seen with the ellipsis in your World of Light Spirit team, why shouldn't they use the ellipsis? The confusion over whether it looks like a menu extension button does not matter. Most users would be smarter than that. And if they browse more of the wiki, they'll understand it as a symbol. They'll get used to it. Mega Man's symbol looks kind of like an options button. And a loading ellipsis would have each dot flash or move so I don't think many people would see it as loading. And even so, it fits the idea of a franchise waiting for a symbol. Anyway, if we go for no symbol it seems like the tables would have to be centered for it to work. Left-aligned tables could get their arrangement messed up if a universe lacked a symbol. And blank symbols are entirely out of the question. SeanWheeler (talk) 02:00, March 2, 2020 (EST)

Again Sean you're still trying to push usage of the ellipses, despite an administrator ending the discussion. We have a reason to not use the ellipses because of the reasons mentioned above. And even though Battlefield doesn't do the best job at representating the other series, the ellipses is worse. OmegαToαd the Toαd Wαrrior (B U P) 02:08, March 2, 2020 (EST)

The next person to attempt to continue this discussion will earn themselves a block for refusing to read. This talkpage will also be locked. Toomai Glittershine The Incomperable 06:47, March 2, 2020 (EST)