Forum:Categorizing Special Moves
For a while (probably ever since this Wiki's been around), many have argued upon how the special moves the playable characters should be categorized in pages. Some say to to do it by mechanics of the move or their users, others (like myself) say it should be by the name of the move.
Why do I think seperating them by mechanics is not a good idea? Some moves like Ike's, Greninja's, and Cloud's Final Smashes are very similar, if not the same mechanically. But it doesn't make sense to merge those together. Not counting those, if we just did it by mechanics, we'd be adding probably around 40 pages regarding special moves. Someone had suggested that all special moves, aside from the Echo Fighters, should have their own page, in other words, separate them by user. If we did that, we'd be making over 80 pages. It'd still be over 50 if you got rid of the Echo Fighters. With those in mind, we'd be separating them by mechanics or user.
Why do I think they should be separated by name? Because multiple characters share moves. Both Pikachu and Pichu have Volt Tackle, so it would make sense that for those moves to be on the same page. But what about moves like Bomb or Thunder? They have multiple characters who use them that are from different series. Then we'd separate those by series. Since Pikachu, Pichu, and Robin all use Thunder, that will be separated as "Thunder (Pokemon)" since two Pokemon use it, and "Thunder (Robin) since Robin is the only Fire Emblem character who uses it. In the case for Bombs, since Link, Young Link, Toon Link, and Samus use it, it will be separated as "Bomb (Link)" since multiple Links use it [or as "Bombs (Zelda)" since they are all from the Zelda series] and as "Bombs (Samus)" since Samus is the only Metroid character who uses it. With those in mind, we'd be separating both Name and Series.
Some games have moves that are able to be learned by multiple characters. Because of this, they are separated by the move itself. Things like execution usually depend on the character's individual stats, not the move itself. If there was more to the move, (like an extra mechanic that multiple moves apply to) it usually includes a link to the page where the move applies. I know the SmashWiki has its own rules which means it does not have to follow what other Wikis do, and that SmashWiki "not official" which means it’s not necessary to follow what Nintendo says in every circumstance. But I feel we need to find structure regarding this. Like I mentioned, the way to categorize the special moves have probably been discussed ever since this Wiki had been created. Numerous moves have been split, merged, re:split, and re:merged all for different reasons. I want to find a possible concrete solution for this that applies to the majority. Not specifically to myself, registered users, or even the admins. But one that would make sense for the majority to the people that come to the Wiki for information. Which is why I put this Proposal. When commenting, take your time and please do not support or oppose the ideas for yourself or a select few, but for the majority. Thank you. Wolff (talk) 17:03, May 12, 2019 (EDT)
1. Mechanics do not primarily factor how a move is merged or split in most cases. If they do it's for some very specific reasons, but generally a move having different mechanics won't effect it's merge status. It is instead based on other factors due to multiple moves having the exact same mechanics but would not make sense to be merged at all.
2. If 2 characters have a special with the same name they must have the qualities listed below in order to have a merge. If even 1 of these qualities is not true then they shall not be merged
3. If a move used by a character in a previous game has had a name change but otherwise works the exact same, then it will stay merged with the original move.
4. If a move is merged but has different mechanics, then those different mechanics will be explained in detail with each character having their own section dedicated to that character and the differences from the other versions of the move and it. (See User:Xtra3678/Blaster) This will help organize and keep techs that only work with one of the characters separate from the other characters so that someone won't find Falco techs when looking for information on wolf's blaster, as those would be in a different section.
5. If a merged move has custom moves and another merged move has customs as well, then each custom would be put in the same area but the information is mostly separate. (See Fireball or User:Xtra3678/Blaster)
Chikorita and Snivy's Razor Leaf do deal different damage. Chikorita's does 2% damage on the first hit, while Snivy's first does 7%. Piplup and Oshawott's Surf have different duration. Piplup's lasts 4secs while Oshawott's lasts 5secs (from after they say their names). Fighter Ability is a "certain ability a character has that automatically activates, without the player needing to do anything to make it happen", which means the blasters in the throw could count as it "automatically activates, without the player needing to do anything to make it happen". Same goes for Wolf's blaster. It does have a blade on it, but that can be considered to be more of a Fighter Ability as it "automatically activates". (Both of which I tested) A move can be the same with different properties, which gives people reasons to use certain characters over others (usually those who are referred to as clones). I previously added more information (and research) and now again to support my points, as per SW:NPOV and SW:CONSENSUS. Also Lou Cena, do not start telling people to leave a discussion if they are not vandalizing. You've already done that at least twice (SW:YAV, SW:AGF, and possibly even SW:NPA). And as per talk page rules, you are only suppose to reply to the end of someone's contribution (where their signature is), not in between. Wolff (talk) 17:47, May 15, 2019 (EDT)
Splitting all shared special moves
I feel like this is the only way to end Talk:Baster (Fox)|the Forum:Moves by name|debates. And by all, I mean ALL. Lucina's specials, Daisy’s, Chrom’s, the five counters. Split all of them, just so that we can have something consistent going on. Lou Cena (talk) 12:28, May 15, 2019 (EDT)
Going by the idea that Capstalker proposed, by comparing the special moves by name, origin, functionality and animation, I currently did the one by name. (Numbered to make reading easier)
(The Mii Fighters' default moves, as well as Piranha Plant's and Joker's moves, and all their Final Smashes were also included in the list) So who are the ones going to make the lists based on the moves' origin, functionality and animation so we can compare? (I do not believe I am capable enough to do functionality or animation) Wolff (talk) 20:54, May 16, 2019 (EDT)
I am late to this discussion but it's come to the point where I feel that making a page for every special move, Echo Fighter or not, is the most consistent way of going about this. There's nothing that says we can't make a whole bunch of pages - it's not like the wiki has a shortage of them, especially when the individual moves of every character, including Echoes, are supposed to get pages. Take Simon (SSBU)/Neutral attack and Richter (SSBU)/Neutral attack. I apologize for using pages that haven't been made yet, but these are two pages that, when eventually made, are going to cover the exact same thing. If things this specific yet identical can have their own pages, there is not really a good reason why general information regarding special moves cannot be made into freestanding pages, especially those with actual mechanical differences. There has been talk about what "new users" would want, and if I were a new user wanting to read information on Wolf's Blaster, I don't want to have a page clogged with information that is not Wolf's Blaster, especially if I'm on my phone and every character takes up more bytes that causes the page to load slower.
I am kind of going back on myself by saying that all fighters' special moves need pages, but like I've stated, that is the most consistent option. Depending on the ideas of others, I am willing to find a compromise if there is one to be had, but I think we can all agree at least that there needs to be a consistent ruling on how to go about these pages. John HUAH! 23:29, May 27, 2019 (EDT)
I've gotta say that I think it's inherently counterproductive to split up pages that work quite adequately as-is. Counter may be a lengthy article, but there's little benefit to splitting it when a) all the names are the same, b) all the moves are conceptually the same, and c) all the moves are functionally similar, with explanations to how they differ. Subdividing and subdividing isn't inherently a good thing. Rather, I think these should remain as they currently are: case-by-case. Miles (talk) 20:51, May 30, 2019 (EDT)
I want to point out that I am still observing this discussion, but I've been busy without too much time for long-term wiki debates. I think that this "2 out of 3" approach seems to be moving in the direction of a workable compromise, but I want to ask: What is the difference between a core concept and a general function? Both of those seem like they could be pretty much the same thing depending on how you interpret the wording. John HUAH! 14:57, June 9, 2019 (EDT)
Forgive me if I seem rude, suddenly barging into the discussion like this; but I feel like this is something where we need a hardline rule to avoid this debate repeating itself five years later. I think the only consistent solution is to split every page, but I recognize that's... messy, what with all the similar moves floating around. However, I also think having some pages be merged and others be split would be messy in its own way. In that sense, I guess the question is "which type of messiness are we more able to tolerate"? Ahemtoday (talk) 13:09, June 22, 2019 (EDT)
Then I do think the best compromise is Miles' guidelines, but I do think the term of "core concept" needs a bit of rephrasing. I would call it the NAF Rule, based on these names for the three factors: