Forum:Project M coverage

Forums: Index → Proposals → Project M coverage

This discussion is in regards to a proposed change on SmashWiki. The discussion must first meet with a consensus before it is implemented.

Here's the fact: Project M is becoming less and less relevant. The PMDT has disbanded, VGBC is no longer streaming it, and the last PM national was held on January 21st, 2017, over a month ago. As PM tournaments become more scarce and our PM character articles fall more and more out of date, I think it is finally time to declare PM old news. That is why I propose that the PM character articles be removed. Two ways we can do this:

1. Delete and never look back.
2. Condense all articles to a [Project M/Characters] article. Each character would get a brief description, changes from vanilla Brawl, and maybe the alts. Revision sections, moveset tables, notable players sections, and trivia would not be included. Currently existing links (e.g. Mario) would redirect to their relevant section on this article.

Now obviously this would be a major change for SmashWiki, so before any decisions can be made, we must first deliberate. Serpent King 21:03, 3 March 2017 (EST)

Support full deletion of PM character pages

1. I think that we need to make ssbwiki more relevant to what is up to date. I think we need to do this for Project M and SSBB. This will drive more attention on what is currently going on, and people won't be adding random Brawl trivia rather than help add results for the recent Melee/Smash 4 SuperMajor tournament. How do you sign stuff... —Preceding unsigned comment added by LCS (talk • contribs) {{{2}}}

   The only reason that this an option for PM is because it's a mod of an official game. You want to delete character pages for Brawl, an official game in the series? That game had a 7 year run competitively, there's no way those are ever being deleted. Just because it isn't played much anymore doesn't mean they should just be thrown away. Also, notability is not specifically a matter of "it's no longer relevant": notability is a matter of "it WAS relevant at one point". PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 17:25, 4 March 2017 (EST)

   I just think that ssbwiki should be more about getting current info. If brawl at CEO Dreamland revives the franchise, then I think we should change nothing. We are all entitled to our own opinion, and I just think that is a very appropriate option right now. (I'm kind of offended —Preceding unsigned comment added by LCS (talk • contribs) {{{2}}}

   I don't get the logic behind deleting the character pages for Brawl just because they're not being played competitively as much anymore. I think that sets a very dangerous precedent for any other games that may or may not fall into obscurity in the future. Brawl pages aren't stopping people from editing Smash 4 and Melee pages. Also, keep in mind that this is not strictly a wiki for the competitive scene: this is a wiki dedicated to the Super Smash Bros. series. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 14:02, 5 March 2017 (EST)

   Well, I just think that making ssbwiki more based on the competitive scene is what we should do. You don't have to agree with me, but I think this is what would be best for the wiki. Besides, I am the only person on this wiki who thinks this. It won't happen. Signed by USER:LCS

Support condensed [Project M/Characters] article

1. This is probably the best compromise choice. I never thought the separate character pages were even remotely justified, but this leaves us the ability to give a somewhat more verbose description of each character than would be feasible on a single page. Miles (talk) 21:09, 3 March 2017 (EST)
2. Yeah I think this is probably our best bet. It would be easy enough to change the {{PM}} template to link to these sections, and this option does give us something to link the head icons to, as well as the smasher infobox. Serpent King 21:14, 3 March 2017 (EST)
3. Quite honestly, PM was popular, giving it a legitimate reason (in my book) to have its character pages. With that being said, if you ask me, having this one follow suit with Brawl- with its own subpage for character changes is probably a good idea. Aidan, the Irish Dragon Warrior 21:17, 3 March 2017 (EST)
4. The only reason we allowed separate character pages in the first place was the mainstream popularity and ongoing development. Now that both those are toast, let's cut it down to Brawl Minus's size. Toomai Glittershine The Free 21:20, 3 March 2017 (EST)
5. Never liked PM, but why bother with full deletion? Own PM character articles should not be significant to this wiki, but changes should still be mentioned on its own page like Brawl- should. Dots (talk) The Scout 21:23, 3 March 2017 (EST)
6. I don't have much to add of my own accord, but there's not really much of a downside to having an article like this, even considering the info we'd have to remove. Since the mod is basically dead, a loss of the Notable Players section would mean nothing, and there's honestly not much in the way of character trivia with PM anyway that isn't already present in Brawl. Nymbare and his talk 21:57, 3 March 2017 (EST)
7. I support this for reasons already stated. There is some... messiness associated with PM and mod related content on this wiki, so this is a good first step. RobSir zx 21:59, 3 March 2017 (EST)
8. As much as I love PM, I never quite understood why each character had their own individual page. Ragnarok320, The Toa of Fire (talk) 00:50, 4 March 2017 (EST)
9. I agree with the rest that many PM articles in particular are quite messy and outdated. Yet there are not too many people interested on fixing them anymore. Some characters in the mod are barely any different from their Melee iterations anyway, so people could just look at their Melee pages for reference. Therefore, I support the second proposal. (The first proposal is going overboard if you ask me, we still need to let everyone know at least what the mod did.) DracoRexKing, Creator of the Land 09:59, 4 March 2017 (EST)
10. With something so...dormant and uncertain as P:M is (spin-offs and unofficial versions could spring up within a moment's notice), it might be best to have a wiki dedicated to the game. I'd be up for deleting all character pages, but I think having condensed info in a single page would also work very well. Even if details like lists of moves and whatnot wouldn't be present, having a quick overview of how characters are different in P:M is a highly informative way of showing what the community thinks of the series as a whole in terms of balance, fun, competition, themes, etc. — {Espyo^T} 13:08, 4 March 2017 (EST)
11. I'd say that a condensed version with all of the major details (similar to the Brawl Minus character page) seems like a good solution. It's also worth noting that, unlike the Brawl- page, a PM page can't be outdated at this point. BaconMaster 18:01, 4 March 2017 (EST)
12. I never liked Project M. A single bit. Characters are so broken and Meleefied. I never got why it got to become a competitive game. While I like some of the skin mods to characters, this game lacks a lot of originality. However, seeing it does have a competitive base, I think that this should actually be the only factible solution. At least condense it in a full article. And hey, the articles are also badly written. We should really get a Project M dev to help us with the changelogs if the changes to characters are going to stay. -- (talk) 18:36, 4 March 2017 (EST)

Oppose any deletion

1. Deletion is ridiculous. For many people, it's the only source of information. Considering how much content Project M has, and the impact it's had overall in Smash history, it would be unwise. Why fix something that's not broken? That's like deleting all information on Brawl because it's old and unpopular. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.160.61.86 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 3 March 2017 (EST)

   Except Brawl is an official game in the series; Project M is not. Aidan, the Irish Dragon Warrior 21:55, 3 March 2017 (EST)

2. I agree with the post above. Project M, like it or not, was still a huge part of the Smash community for a long period of time and it is very much a separate game in terms of mechanics from Brawl. It is unique in that it is a syncretism of Brawl, Melee, and SSB64, and it is a very much unique game. I don't think that relegating such a complex game to a character page is doing the game justice. As said above, this Wiki is pretty much the only source of reliable information on this game, and the frame data and differences from Brawl/Melee help people understand the characters on a much deeper level. Unless some other resource starts supplying frame data (kind of like how Kurogane Hammer supplies this for SSB4), I think it's good to have this as a nice source of information, albeit even if the topic matter is slipping into obscurity. Thevictorystar (talk) 00:22, 4 March 2017 (EST)
3. I think this would be bad precedent. If you'll forgive me for quoting Wikipedia policy, notability is not temporary. "It's not popular anymore" is not cause to delete something. Perhaps the character pages could still use some condensing, but not for this reason, and I don't think they should be deleted. Zyrac(talk•contribs) 10:32, 4 March 2017 (EST)
4. Project M is picking up again, there's a circuit this year just like last years, PMRank, Zyrac is right, And just because it losing popularity Dosent mean it should be deleted and it is nowhere obselete Poultry(talk) the God-Slayer 15:29, 4 March 2017 (EST)
5. There's already so much content on the wiki, how is it beneficial to get rid of it? Of course PM was going to lose popularity, that should've been a consideration before writing the pages in the first place. Now that this content is there, it does no harm by staying. "It's not an official game" doesn't really hold weight when we already use SW:OFFICIAL to override official terms such as Ukemi and Stong Up. Toast ltimatum 20:12, 4 March 2017 (EST)

Neutral

1. PM is still significant at regionals, and Legacy TE was just released (very tournament friendly build) which might rekindle some popularity. I don't think we should delete PM information, because we already have it laid out perfectly. Even if it no longer has a major tournament presence, it still has historical relevance. I wouldn't be opposed to it being shrunk to the same size as other Brawl Mods, or being kept as is.DekZek 21:59, 3 March 2017 (EST)
2. Looks like Miles is finally going to get his wish. xD Project M is now irrelevant and at this point I personally don't care what happens to its pages on this wiki. HOWEVER - the information that we have is probably valuable to someone. If we get rid of it we could lose some potential Smashwiki audience/editors. John PK SMAAAASH!! 00:07, 4 March 2017 (EST)

   Irrelevant, really think through what you say, because the PM scene is huge, it got a side at EVO, its own circuit, and then PMRank... Think more thoroughly next time Poultry(talk) the God-Slayer 17:58, 4 March 2017 (EST)

Comments

The last PM national was actually The Flex Zone 2 on February 18th, but a page hasn't been made for it yet. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 21:49, 3 March 2017 (EST)

What is it that you guys actually think we're losing by going to the subpage method? Literally, all the useful information is still there. We don't need revisions because who seriously cares about old versions. The moveset table is literally just the same thing as each characters' Brawl counterparts, only incorporating the new changes (which will be included in the subpage), rendering it mostly moot. No one cares about the notability section in PM pages, and trivia is just as useless. Serpent King 00:51, 4 March 2017 (EST)

The only thing I completely oppose is getting rid of everything PM related in this wiki. Regardless of how it's doing now, the fact remains that it had a huge impact. Ragnarok320, The Toa of Fire (talk) 01:26, 4 March 2017 (EST)

Assuming that the proposed changes are going to look like this, shouldn't we do the same for the Brawl- characters page? Miles' setup is much cleaner and then the page won't have walls upon walls of text that don't really show anything like they do now. John PK SMAAAASH!! 10:08, 4 March 2017 (EST)

The page is going to be huge then Poultry(talk) the God-Slayer 15:33, 4 March 2017 (EST)

That's fine, really. As I have said before, we gain nothing from having specific changes for B-, as it has little to no following. SD Remix and B+ are in the same boat there. That said, since people don't seem to agree with me there, I would say that a format change would be welcome. Serpent King 17:43, 4 March 2017 (EST)

I have no real input as to what I'd prefer happen (though I did see this happening one day sooner or later), but I do wanna make this point clear for those who may be wondering what to vote for. I would highly advise against voting on deleting Project M off of the wiki without a trace. Not only is this task needlessly long and tedious if we went that route, but think of the possible repercussions. PM had a long tournament run, and if we're to go this route, this could really affect smasher articles as a whole. If we delete all Project M-related things without a trace, does that mean we delete all Project M results? Does that mean we delete all Project M tournaments? I'm not saying that all of this will happen if we went this route, but these are things that definitely need to be considered when voting. Disaster Flare (talk) 17:55, 4 March 2017 (EST)

*actually reads the whole ordeal*

Or what I'm saying is entirely pointless as it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. Scuse me while I jump off a cliff. Disaster Flare (talk) 18:01, 4 March 2017 (EST)

So let me rip apart all sides of this:

Reasons for full deletion

1. To shift attention to SSB4 and Melee

   Err, not a great argument. You cannot force editors to edit only the new, and attempts to do so should be discouraged.

Reasons for subpage

1. PM is obsolete because of the lack of tournaments, streaming, and development
2. Doing this makes more sense for linking than deleting the articles, as it gives us something to link to (including head icons, templates, etc)
3. The only reason we had the character articles in the first place was because of active development
4. The information that would be cut out is irrelevant or useless anyway
5. No one wants to edit for PM anymore, so it's fallen out of date

   No one edits for SSB anymore either. I don't see the lack of recent edits as a decent stand-alone reason to delete an article

Reasons for oppose

1. It's the only source of information

   It's the neatest source, but not the only one. SmashBoards and Reddit both have tech data on PM. Also let me reiterate that by doing the condense, we are not losing anything important.

2. Has a ton of content and large impact on the Smash scene

   An ok point I guess, but I am not sure that content-size really has any relevance in a notability discussion. PM has had a larger impact in the past than Brawl and SSB, but don't see that anymore, really.

3. Notability is not temporary

   An actually decent point, though I do have to say that the condense to one page (but we still have the information) does make this a little irrelevant, since we would not actually be losing anything important.

4. It's not actually obsolete because of PMRank and upcoming tournaments

   Uhh It's obsolete because no one plays the games outside of tiny side events anymore, and even if they do, no one will stream it due to legal stuff.

Neutral

1. New non-PMDT release Legacy TE
2. We have data laid out perfectly as is

   We really don't, though. There are missing sections all over the place, and a bunch of characters have out of date info.

3. We may lose editors/readers if we delete

   I find this a bit unlikely really, especially if we do the condensed version. I have already said it, but all the important stuff would still exist.

So yeah that's about how I am evaluating all of your arguments at this point. Yell at me if I left something out. Serpent King 18:43, 4 March 2017 (EST)

In regards to your fourth counter-point towards "oppose", PM tournaments are always streamed on Hitbox. Obviously, it's not as big as Twitch, but every PM national definitely gets streamed, at the very least. Also, the game still hits 100+ entrants (for example, The Flex Zone 2 was a dedicated PM national that was hosted less than a month ago and got 129), so I think it's a slight exaggeration to say no one plays it (although it's certainly not as big as it used to be): it's just more so that there's a bit of a dedicated fanbase now. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 19:17, 4 March 2017 (EST)

Agreeing with Jamal here, also if you aren't knowledgeable in the competitive scene you shouldn't be involved (if you didn't know of the flex zone 2, which is on the front page, that would count as not very knowledgeable) Poultry(talk) the God-Slayer 19:25, 4 March 2017 (EST)

Excuse me? I made that mistake simply by looking at the List of national tournaments article only, where we fail to mention a Flex Zone. Besides that, you do not get to tell anyone which discussions they can and can't be involved in. This comment is totally inappropriate and borderline rude. I suggest you watch your words. Serpent King 19:29, 4 March 2017 (EST)

I think it was an honest mistake on your part, but it definitely is on the page (right under Cashed Out). Not too big of a deal, though. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 19:36, 4 March 2017 (EST)

Aha that's why. I missed it because it was a redlink. Thanks for that Serpent King 19:38, 4 March 2017 (EST)

Edit conflict... Bruh, here's what I said anyway

I wasn't specifically mentioning you I meant everyone who was saying that project m is obselete and just a friendly side-event

I meant that if you know nothing about competitive smash at all you shouldn't be going around making uneducated points about project m

So, you made a small mistake I don't care about that the fact that you messed up on your facts is proof you didn't look into this enough you also failed at mentioning hitbox which also backs up my point

It's the internet if you get offended you obviously need to harden up Poultry(talk) the God-Slayer 19:52, 4 March 2017 (EST)

I wasn't specifically mentioning you I meant everyone who was saying that project m is obselete and just a friendly side-event

You literally mentioned my mistake and said that anyone who would make the mistake should not comment. What even.

I meant that if you know nothing about competitive smash at all you shouldn't be going around making uneducated points about project m

Right because they are one in the same aren't they? No actually they are not, competitive != PM nor vice versa. And it's also very far from the truth to say that I know nothing about competitive smash, nor is it your place to make such a statement.

So, you made a small mistake I don't care about that the fact that you messed up on your facts is proof you didn't look into this enough you also failed at mentioning hitbox which also backs up my point.

"I don't care that you made a mistake, but the fact that you did makes you an idiot and disqualifies your opinion in this discussion"

It's the internet if you get offended you obviously need to harden up

"I am allowed to be as rude on the internet as I want" Sooo have a gander at SW:NPA which clearly contradicts that, also you can knock off the arrogant demeanor at any time now. You are not making yourself sound good, just making you look like a pompous jerk. Serpent King 20:06, 4 March 2017 (EST)

How many more days are we going to give this thing? I feel like it isn't a resolved discussion until Omega Tyrant throws in his two cents lol. John HUAH! 12:47, 5 March 2017 (EST)

Who knows? Didn't think things would escalate this much here. Ragnarok320, The Toa of Fire (talk) 14:48, 5 March 2017 (EST)