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King Dedede (SSBB)/Down throw: Difference between revisions

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==Overview==
==Overview==
King Dedede butt-slams the opponent after positioning them underneath him, knocking them horizontally with low [[set knockback]]. The move can [[chaingrab]] every character with a [[weight]] value above 85 ({{SSBB|Marth}} and heavier). Simply using a dash grab will guarantee a regrab, as every character that can be chaingrabbed cannot [[tech]] the move. Characters with a weight value of 85 or lower will be knocked too far horizontally to regrab before they are knocked onto the ground (it is also possible for them to tech), meaning the move works as a [[tech-chasing]] option instead against them (this move functions similar to {{SSBM|Fox}}'s shine in Melee in this regard). The move is useful for racking damage, and can be used to chaingrab characters across the stage. A series of down throws performed across a stage can deal 20-40% and [[stale|refresh]] the rest of his moves, and when Dedede is near the edge of the stage, an attack such as a down throw, {{mvsub|King Dedede|SSBB|forward throw}}, or {{mvsub|King Dedede|SSBB|down tilt}} can put the opponent into an [[edgeguarding]] situation. [[Pummel]]s can be added after the regrab at higher percents (when the opponent can't [[button mash]] out of the grab fast enough) to deal extra damage. It is also notable for being the only chaingrab in the game to have set knockback, meaning it can be used at any percentage. The timing required to perform the running chaingrab varies depending on the opponent's [[weight]] and [[falling speed]]; for example, chaingrabbing {{SSBB|Pit}} requires very precise timing, while the timing is less strict for characters such as {{SSBB|Wario}} because they don't get sent as far away from King Dedede. Larger stages such as {{SSBB|Final Destination}} also allow more the running chaingrab to be performed more times than on smaller stages such as [[Smashville]]. The move can combo into certain moves based on the distance the opponent is sent away from Dedede; it can be followed up by a {{mvsub|King Dedede|SSBB|forward tilt}} on every character, a {{mvsub|King Dedede|SSBB|down tilt}} on certain characters, and a {{mvsub|King Dedede|SSBB|down smash}} on {{SSBB|Bowser}}. As a tech-chase move on lighter characters, a successful [[read]] can lead to a regrab or another attack such as an {{mvsub|King Dedede|SSBB|up smash}} to deal more damage or KO.
King Dedede positions his opponent underneath him and then sits on them, knocking them away at a low horizontal angle. The move has an initial hit before the throw and then King Dedede performs the throw, with both dealing 4% each for a total of 8%. The throw does take some time to set up but it does have relatively low ending lag.  


The chaingrab can also [[infinite]] a select few characters - {{SSBB|Donkey Kong}} can be regrabbed on any flat [[terrain]] without King Dedede having to move forward or [[pummel]], {{SSBB|Bowser}}, {{SSBB|Wolf}}, and another King Dedede can be regrabbed near the edge of the stage, and {{SSBB|Mario}}, {{SSBB|Luigi}}, and {{SSBB|Samus}} can be regrabbed without moving while using two pummels per grab. These standing infinites are the main reason why these characters have very poor matchups against King Dedede. Every character with a weight value of 85 or higher can be infinited if thrown against a wall that stays on the stage forever (such as the pillars on [[Shadow Moses Island]] or the fin on the lower part of [[Corneria]]). King Dedede can also perform a standing chaingrab on every character while standing on the [[Smashville]] platform if he is facing the direction the platform is moving, since Dedede is carried forward by the platform.  
King Dedede's down throw is rather unique as it possesses [[set knockback]]. Because of this, its knockback is always consistent, regardless of the opponent's percent and the throw's knockback does not decrease with stale move negation, although when the throw is stale enough, the throw will deal one frame less [[hitlag]], giving King Dedede one more frame of ending lag after a down throw. Against characters who weight less than 86 units, the throw puts the opponent into [[tumble]], which can allow King Dedede to potentially set up a tech chase depending on the opponent's DI but outside of its low launch angle, the throw is overall not too effective against the lightest characters, with forward throw or especially back throw being potentially stronger options due to their higher damage. King Dedede does not get any guaranteed followups against lighter characters and his overall slow speed means that he cannot easily chase his opponents, although it is still a useful throw to give Koing Dedede stage control.
 
Against characters who weigh over 85 units however, down throw does not put the opponent into tumble, with the opponent suffering from a high amount of hitstun. This allows King Dedede to get guaranteed followups out of down throw, including a forward tilt or a down tilt. The most powerful followup King Dedede can get however is another grab. Down throw's low ending lag, combined with King Dedede's fast and long ranged grabs allow him to get a dash grab. The move functions similarly to {{SSBM|Fox}}'s shine in ''Melee'' in this regard, with both move's having identical knockback and their utility varying in comparable ways against the same weight classes.
 
Because King Dedede can get a guaranteed regrab against his opponent after a down throw (as long as they are heavy enough to not get knocked down by the down throw), this means that King Dedede can chain together multiple down throws across the stage to rack up a significant amount of damage. On a stage with walk off blastzones, King Dedede can continue down throwing his opponent until they reach the blastzone and get KOes, which naturally makes him an extremely powerful character on these stages, as a single grab at any percent will result in the opponent getting KOed. On stages with walls, King Dedede can simply stand still and continue down throwing the opponent for as long as he chooses (as long as the wall remains), which is naturally incredibly powerful. On other stages, King Dedede can continue down throwing the opponent until they reach the ledge which on tournament legal stages, can deal around 30-40% if he chain grabs them from one side of the stage to the other. King Dedede can optimise his down throw chain grab by performing a skid cancel grab rather than a dash grab, which results in King Dedede travelling less distance between each grab, allowing him to get more grabs and down throws in for more damage.
 
While King Dedede can get a run up down throw chain grab against every character who weighs over 85 units, King Dedede can chaingrab some characters without needing to run up. Against heavier and larger characters in particular, King Dedede can simply walk up to the opponent and then grab them. This allows King Dedede to build up a ton of damage on his opponent which depending on the character, can be in the high double digits. King Dedede can then often followup with a move like forward tilt or down tilt to end the chain grab and potentially KO the opponent.
 
Against a handful of characters, King Dedede can even chaingrab the opponent by standing still. King Dedede simply needs to [[buffer]] a standing grab after performing a down throw to make sure that it comes out as soon as possible. This allows King Dedede to essentially infinite his opponent, down throwing them as many times as the player wants. This can work from center stage or near the edge depending on the character. Against some characters, this is a true infinite depending on where it is set up although on others, the infinite will stop working once down throw becomes too stale, due to the lower hitlag the throw causes when it is too stale, which results in the grab whiffing. The down throw can be un-stalled if King Dedede performs two pummels although stronger players will easily be able to mash out of the pummels before King Dedede gets the chance to down throw his opponent again.  
 
There is additionally another way King Dedede can potentially perform a standing infinite with his down throw although it is extremely difficult. If King Dedede buffers a pivot grab (by pressing down back → down → down back → down forward + grab → let go of grab all within the 10 frame buffer window), he can potentially regrab his opponent in situations his normal grab cannot, due to the greater range on his pivot grab. This can allow King Dedede to infinite characters he normally would not be able to (or at least chain together down throws until the throw becomes too stale). While this is quite a useful tool on paper, it is extremely difficult to perform in practice, due to the fact that the player has to perform a very awkward string of inputs in a very short timespan. Its extreme difficulty to pull off (especially consistently) combined with the fact that it was only useful in a few matchups (with Snake and Wolf being the only characters in the upper half of the tier list where it could be utilised) meant that even top level King Dedede players rarely utilised this technique.
 
Overall, King Dedede's down throw is one of the best throws in the entire game due to its high damage racking potentially against a significant portion of the cast. While its effectiveness is heavily dependent on the matchup, the matchups where it is effective, it is highly effective. It is such an important tool in King Dedede's tool that it is flat out a matchup defining tool. Many matchups where King Dedede can utilise the chain grab are considered to be in his favor (sometimes drastically so solely because of the chaingrab) whereas in matchups where he cannot chaingrab, he overall struggles a lot more, potentially heavily losing to higher tiered characters he cannot chain grab. Down throw combined with King Dedede's grabs is overall the main reason why King Dedede is considered a relevant character in the meta, despite all of his shortcomings as a character, as these tools alone allow him to gatekeep many mid and low tier characters.


==Throw Data==
==Throw Data==

Revision as of 08:04, September 28, 2022

Overview

King Dedede positions his opponent underneath him and then sits on them, knocking them away at a low horizontal angle. The move has an initial hit before the throw and then King Dedede performs the throw, with both dealing 4% each for a total of 8%. The throw does take some time to set up but it does have relatively low ending lag.

King Dedede's down throw is rather unique as it possesses set knockback. Because of this, its knockback is always consistent, regardless of the opponent's percent and the throw's knockback does not decrease with stale move negation, although when the throw is stale enough, the throw will deal one frame less hitlag, giving King Dedede one more frame of ending lag after a down throw. Against characters who weight less than 86 units, the throw puts the opponent into tumble, which can allow King Dedede to potentially set up a tech chase depending on the opponent's DI but outside of its low launch angle, the throw is overall not too effective against the lightest characters, with forward throw or especially back throw being potentially stronger options due to their higher damage. King Dedede does not get any guaranteed followups against lighter characters and his overall slow speed means that he cannot easily chase his opponents, although it is still a useful throw to give Koing Dedede stage control.

Against characters who weigh over 85 units however, down throw does not put the opponent into tumble, with the opponent suffering from a high amount of hitstun. This allows King Dedede to get guaranteed followups out of down throw, including a forward tilt or a down tilt. The most powerful followup King Dedede can get however is another grab. Down throw's low ending lag, combined with King Dedede's fast and long ranged grabs allow him to get a dash grab. The move functions similarly to Fox's shine in Melee in this regard, with both move's having identical knockback and their utility varying in comparable ways against the same weight classes.

Because King Dedede can get a guaranteed regrab against his opponent after a down throw (as long as they are heavy enough to not get knocked down by the down throw), this means that King Dedede can chain together multiple down throws across the stage to rack up a significant amount of damage. On a stage with walk off blastzones, King Dedede can continue down throwing his opponent until they reach the blastzone and get KOes, which naturally makes him an extremely powerful character on these stages, as a single grab at any percent will result in the opponent getting KOed. On stages with walls, King Dedede can simply stand still and continue down throwing the opponent for as long as he chooses (as long as the wall remains), which is naturally incredibly powerful. On other stages, King Dedede can continue down throwing the opponent until they reach the ledge which on tournament legal stages, can deal around 30-40% if he chain grabs them from one side of the stage to the other. King Dedede can optimise his down throw chain grab by performing a skid cancel grab rather than a dash grab, which results in King Dedede travelling less distance between each grab, allowing him to get more grabs and down throws in for more damage.

While King Dedede can get a run up down throw chain grab against every character who weighs over 85 units, King Dedede can chaingrab some characters without needing to run up. Against heavier and larger characters in particular, King Dedede can simply walk up to the opponent and then grab them. This allows King Dedede to build up a ton of damage on his opponent which depending on the character, can be in the high double digits. King Dedede can then often followup with a move like forward tilt or down tilt to end the chain grab and potentially KO the opponent.

Against a handful of characters, King Dedede can even chaingrab the opponent by standing still. King Dedede simply needs to buffer a standing grab after performing a down throw to make sure that it comes out as soon as possible. This allows King Dedede to essentially infinite his opponent, down throwing them as many times as the player wants. This can work from center stage or near the edge depending on the character. Against some characters, this is a true infinite depending on where it is set up although on others, the infinite will stop working once down throw becomes too stale, due to the lower hitlag the throw causes when it is too stale, which results in the grab whiffing. The down throw can be un-stalled if King Dedede performs two pummels although stronger players will easily be able to mash out of the pummels before King Dedede gets the chance to down throw his opponent again.

There is additionally another way King Dedede can potentially perform a standing infinite with his down throw although it is extremely difficult. If King Dedede buffers a pivot grab (by pressing down back → down → down back → down forward + grab → let go of grab all within the 10 frame buffer window), he can potentially regrab his opponent in situations his normal grab cannot, due to the greater range on his pivot grab. This can allow King Dedede to infinite characters he normally would not be able to (or at least chain together down throws until the throw becomes too stale). While this is quite a useful tool on paper, it is extremely difficult to perform in practice, due to the fact that the player has to perform a very awkward string of inputs in a very short timespan. Its extreme difficulty to pull off (especially consistently) combined with the fact that it was only useful in a few matchups (with Snake and Wolf being the only characters in the upper half of the tier list where it could be utilised) meant that even top level King Dedede players rarely utilised this technique.

Overall, King Dedede's down throw is one of the best throws in the entire game due to its high damage racking potentially against a significant portion of the cast. While its effectiveness is heavily dependent on the matchup, the matchups where it is effective, it is highly effective. It is such an important tool in King Dedede's tool that it is flat out a matchup defining tool. Many matchups where King Dedede can utilise the chain grab are considered to be in his favor (sometimes drastically so solely because of the chaingrab) whereas in matchups where he cannot chaingrab, he overall struggles a lot more, potentially heavily losing to higher tiered characters he cannot chain grab. Down throw combined with King Dedede's grabs is overall the main reason why King Dedede is considered a relevant character in the meta, despite all of his shortcomings as a character, as these tools alone allow him to gatekeep many mid and low tier characters.

Throw Data

ID Damage Angle BK KS FKV Bone SDIx FFx T% Type Effect Sound
0 4% AngleIcon20.png Forwards 0 100 80 0 1.0x 1.0x 0% TypeIcon(Throwing).png EffectIcon(Normal).png S None
1 3% Sakurai angle Forwards 60 100 0 0 1.0x None 0% TypeIcon(Throwing).png EffectIcon(Normal).png S None

Collateral

ID Part Rehit rate Damage SD Angle BK KS FKV Radius Bone Offset SDIx H× T% Clang Rebound Type Effect G A Sound Direct Blockable Reflectable Absorbable Flinchless Heedless Piercing Strechy ?2 ?5 ?6 ?11 Hit Bits
0 0 0 4% 0 Sakurai angle Forwards 30 80 0 6.0 0 0.0 4.0 0.0 1.0x 1.0x 0% HitboxTableIcon(NoClang).png HitboxTableIcon(Rebound).png TypeIcon(Butt).png EffectIcon(Normal).png HitboxTableIcon(GroundedTrue).png HitboxTableIcon(AerialTrue).png L Thwomp SpecialsDirect.png HitboxTableIcon(Blockable).png HitboxTableIcon(Unreflectable).png HitboxTableIcon(Unabsorbable).png HitboxTableIcon(False).png HitboxTableIcon(False).png HitboxTableIcon(False).png HitboxTableIcon(False).png HitboxTableIcon(False).png HitboxTableIcon(True).png HitboxTableIcon(False).png HitboxTableIcon(False).png 11111111111111

Timing

Invincibility 1-8
Hitbox 21-22
Throw Release 23
Interruptible 42
Animation length 53
FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Hitbox).png FrameIcon(HitboxThrowS).png FrameIcon(LagThrowE).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Lag).png FrameIcon(Interruptible).png FrameIcon(Interruptible).png FrameIcon(Interruptible).png FrameIcon(Interruptible).png FrameIcon(Interruptible).png FrameIcon(Interruptible).png FrameIcon(Interruptible).png FrameIcon(Interruptible).png FrameIcon(Interruptible).png FrameIcon(Interruptible).png FrameIcon(Interruptible).png FrameIcon(Interruptible).png
FrameIcon(Invincible).png FrameIcon(Invincible).png FrameIcon(Invincible).png FrameIcon(Invincible).png FrameIcon(Invincible).png FrameIcon(Invincible).png FrameIcon(Invincible).png FrameIcon(Invincible).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png
Legend (1 square = 1 frame)
FrameIcon(Lag).png
Lag time		 FrameIcon(Hitbox).png
Hitbox		 FrameIcon(Vulnerable).png
Vulnerable		 FrameIcon(Invincible).png
Invincible		 FrameIcon(BlankThrowS).pngFrameIcon(BlankThrowE).png
Throw point		 FrameIcon(Interruptible).png
Interruptible

Chaingrab infinite data

An example of King Dedede's down throw being used as a chaingrab infinite on Donkey Kong in Brawl.
Chaingrab infinite on Donkey Kong.

Characters who can be infinited

Can be infinited without a wall
  • Donkey Kong - Can be infinited without pummels and without moving
  • Bowser - Can be infinited near the edge.
  • King Dedede - Can be infinited near the edge.
  • Samus - Can be infinited five times before stale-move negation comes in. Two pummels can be used before each throw to refresh the down throw.
  • Mario - Can be infinited five times before stale-move negation comes in. Two pummels can be used before each throw to refresh the down throw.
  • Luigi - Can be infinited five times before stale-move negation comes in. Two pummels can be used before each throw to refresh the down throw.
  • Wolf - Can be infinited near the edge five times before stale-move negation comes in. Two pummels can be used before each throw to refresh the down throw.
Can be infinited by throwing them through a downward slope
Can be infinited against a wall that stays on the stage forever
Cannot be infinited due to being knocked down by the down throw

Potential banning

Though the Smash Back Room doesn't specifically ban the standing infinite, many tournaments ban the short step chain grab because of King Dedede's massive grab range that allows him to shield grab many attacks. However, they always keep his running chain grab, which is not so extreme. Many tournaments ban it exclusively because other chain grabs aren't so extreme (the Ice Climbers for example rely on chain grabbing heavily and have poor grab range, there are also strict timing limitations for each character and percentage).


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