Forum:Cloned final smash pages

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Forums: Index Proposals Cloned final smash pages
Proposed.png This discussion is in regards to a proposed change on SmashWiki. The discussion must first meet with a consensus before it is implemented.

About a month ago Daisy Blossom was merged with Peach Blossom on the basis that those two were identical Final Smashes. Notably this makes it the only final smash with a different name to be on the same page as its "parent" final smash. Now it was brought up on my talk page about how the other "cloned" final smashes should be handled, specifically Doctor Finale, Phazon Laser, Team Star Wolf and Dream Town Hall, as they are considered somewhat identical to Mario Finale, Zero Laser, Team Star Fox and Dream Home respectively. Now what makes these final smashes different from Daisy Blossom is that there are some gameplay differences between their parent final smashes (e.g. some deal more damage and knockback), whereas Daisy Blossom has no differences at all from Peach's besides visuals.

Last year a similar proposal was put up on the General proposals to decide how we should merge and split moves, however that one was rather messy and was focused on many other moves (such as special moves) rather than just these cloned final smashes. This proposal however will be focused only on these cloned final smashes. So here are the things we can do:

  • Merge the cloned final smash pages with their parent pages
  • Seperate the cloned final smash pages with different names
  • Only merge identical final smashes This means only final smashes with no gameplay differences will be merged, while others will be kept seperate.

001Toad.jpg OmegαToαd64the Best Kαrter 05:46, May 22, 2020 (EDT)

Merge the Final Smash pages[edit]

Split the Final Smash pages[edit]

*I am pretty sure that for special moves we have decided that different name + even small gameplay differences (i.e. Cape and Super Sheet) are enough for separating. I see no reason why this can't be applied for Final Smashes, and therefore I support keeping them split. --Rdrfc (talk) 06:07, May 22, 2020 (EDT)

  1. Support - This is mainly for organisation reasons within the wiki. Having moves which are of a different name and look somewhat different unmerged will look cleaner and save bandwidth. If you hover on Dream Town Hall for example you would expect to see Isabelle's Final Smash specifically on the thumbnail. Visual differences are still differences, especially relevant for images. --MrMHM (talk) 18:07, June 2, 2020 (EDT)

Only merge Final Smash pages that have no gameplay differences[edit]

  1. This wasn't here when I first voted. Anyway, this is the one that I actually support. basically keeping the current status quo.--Rdrfc (talk) 10:55, May 22, 2020 (EDT)
  2. The whole purpose of merging Peach and Daisy Blossom was that they were functionally identical in every way, so giving them both their own article is a waste of space. While the wiki has been somewhat inconsistent in the past about these things, it's generally common practise now to not merge moves that are similar, but not identical, to their cloned counterparts (see the recent splits for Megavitamins and Super Sheet for example), and I see no reason why we shouldn't apply the same principal to final smashes. Alex the Weeb 07:56, May 23, 2020 (EDT)
  3. Support, since having two separate pages for basically the same Final Smash is really redundant, repetitive, and uninteresting to read, especially if the only difference is aesthetics. CookiesCnC Signature.pngCreme 08:50, May 23, 2020 (EDT)
  4. Since I rushed to start this I decided to wait a bit to see what the best option should be. There's no reason to have 2 pages for a final smashes that are identical, even if they are named differently. This is the main reason why Peach and Daisy Blossom were merged, and there's no reason to split it again. Ones like Dr Finale and Team Star Wolf have noticible gameplay differences so those should stay split. Now the one that is tricky to deal with is Dream Town Hall because, while 5% is extremely minimal, it is still gameplay affecting so this one is in a really gray area. 001Toad.jpg OmegαToαd64the Best Kαrter 09:31, May 23, 2020 (EDT)
  5. Support. This one should be a no-brainer imo. I'd even be keen on merging the ones with very very tiny differences which are meant to be similar to another FS like Dr. Finale and Dream Town Hall, but I'm fine with those staying separate. Acgamer28Acgamer28SignatureHead.png 21:32, May 28, 2020 (EDT)
  6. Support There are a lot of clone Final Smashes. Why not? I think this is the right choice since those with no gameplay differences have very identical functions. SonDanielSonDanielSignatureHead1.pngSonDanielSignatureHead2.png (talk page) 18:18, June 2, 2020 (EDT)
  7. This seems like the most obvious solution. Serpent SKSig.png King 21:03, June 24, 2020 (EDT)
  8. Giving this a bump and supporting this decision, this seems like the best idea imo. S3AHAWK Signature icon 1.png S3AHAWK (talk)S3AHAWK signature icon 2.png 14:37, July 28, 2020 (EDT)
  9. Support. Makes the most sense right now. --PlagueSigImage.pngPlague von KarmaPlagueSigImage.png 15:18, September 2, 2020 (EDT)

Comments[edit]

If you're suggesting that we treat final smashes with gameplay differences the same way we treat functionally identical final smashes, then I think you've kind of missed the point... Alex the Weeb 06:10, May 22, 2020 (EDT)

...Well that just reminded me of one option I left out of this when making this. 001Toad.jpg OmegαToαd64the Best Kαrter 06:27, May 22, 2020 (EDT)
OK I added a third option for final smashes without gameplay affecting differnces to be merged. This would mean only Phazon Laser and Dream Town Hall will be merged, and the others will be kept split due to gameplay differences (I don't recall any differences with phazon laser but correct me if I'm wrong). Admittedly I was in a rush when writing this and didn't have time to proofread. I would actually remove the first option since that's probably not gonna work but it's probably too late. 001Toad.jpg OmegαToαd64the Best Kαrter 09:32, May 22, 2020 (EDT)
Phazon Laser lacks the thrusters, while Dream Town Hall deals 5% more damage. Under previously established rules, Phazon Laser absolutely should not be merged, but Dream Town Hall might, it's a bit of a gray area. I am leaning towards not merging it though because unlike Daisy Blossom there is a minute gameplay difference. --Rdrfc (talk) 10:55, May 22, 2020 (EDT)
This probably isn't super relevant, but I've noticed that Phazon Laser also has a slightly different hit signature to Zero Laser as well as lacking the thrusters. Try using both moves from the same place against the same opponent in the same place, with all other factors controlled as well, and for most positions you won't get the same damage output for both, despite the damage output for each being consistent on their own. Dream Town Hall is definitely a gray area, as the only difference is an additional silent hit for 5% extra damage, however I think it clearly demonstrates that the only consistent place to draw the line is in the presence of a gameplay difference. Alex the Weeb 08:04, May 23, 2020 (EDT)

So here's the deal -- if the absence of the thrusters is enough to keep Zero Laser and Phazon Laser split, then there is zero reason for ZSS's Zero Laser to be merged with Samus's. If we're trying to have a definitive discussion on the state of Final Smash pages, I think we need to hunt down other cases like that. Off the top of my head, Critical Hit and Team Star Fox should also be split. TheNuttyOne 16:27, September 2, 2020 (EDT)

I personally agree with you TheNuttyOne, but if we are splitting Critical Hit I'm thinking of Roy's version is the one to split since its a weaker version of Marth/Lucina's version. Marth/Lucina's variant deal 60% damage and is a One-hit KO whereas Roy's can deal 45% damage if all hits connect and compared to Marth/Lucina's critical hit, Roy's isnt a OHKO. S3AHAWK (talk)S3AHAWK Signature icon 1.png 16:49, September 2, 2020 (EDT)