Forum:Removing matchups from character pages

Forums: Index → Proposals → Removing matchups from character pages

All of our character pages for Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl feature the relevant character's matchup data, based on the various matchup tables we have on this Wiki.

While these tables may have been more useful back when I first started editing back in 2011, I have to question their relevance to today's character articles. Smash 64 and Melee notably have very out-of-date matchup tables, being 6 and 7 years old, respectively, and both their metagames have long since advanced beyond what these tables display (just look at our friend Yoshi). At this point, including them on character pages, to me at least, seems questionable; we don't list tier list data from 7 years ago, after all. I feel that including such data on our character pages is of little use today, but I also understand this is a pretty big decision, given it's affecting tens of articles. And for all I know, I could be dead wrong on how inaccurate they are. Furthermore, if we removed such data from our pages, then there exists the question of what to do with the actual pages on matchups; do we keep the old data up, with a disclaimer, or remove it?

Now, as a result of Brawl's stagnant metagame since 2013, that matchup chart isn't too much a problem, but I can't exactly verify how accurate it is today (though I could potentially bug OT or someone similar about it, I guess). If we removed the matchup data on pages for Smash 64 and Melee, I would keep the matchup data on Brawl pages, mostly because of the current stagnancy of Brawl's metagame. However, this does create a lack of consistency between the Brawl pages and the other pages, but hey, we already have such an inconsistency with Smash 4 pages. Maybe I'm overthinking it.

Again, soliciting for input on this. Not exactly a small decision (again).

--- Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire, 20:04, 22 June 2017 (EDT)

The matchup charts certainly have historical value and should not be removed from the wiki entirely. It's obvious at this point, however, that they are completely out of date. Even Brawl's is out of date - I think Fox is more highly regarded than he used to be, although I could be wrong on that. Either way, I think we should warn users by adding "As of 2011/2013" to the matchup templates on the individual character pages, or remove them and add a link somewhere to the complete matchup chart. John HUAH! 23:28, 22 June 2017 (EDT)

I think it's fine to remove them form character pages but keep them on their own pages. They have a large visual footprint that stands out form the rest of their section, and being so out-of-date is bad for that kind of thing when the rest of the text is a fair progression of historical to present. Toomai Glittershine The Boss 06:40, 23 June 2017 (EDT)

Yeah, in hindsight, completely deleting the machups from their page without a disclaimer would be pretty boneheaded. Sorry about that. Still, I'm on board with removing the Smash 64 and Melee charts from character pages, and I'm going to ask around for the Brawl matchups.

--- Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire, 18:14, 23 June 2017 (EDT)

The Brawl matchups are decently accurate enough. If they were to be redone today, some of them could end up changing, like not even Esam would defend Pikachu being considered even against MK anymore, but that was a highly disputed matchup then that almost no one supported being even at its time and such disputed matchups should be noted on the individual articles anyway. Yeah Brawl's metagame didn't really advanced much after the last BBR MU chart was made, with competitive Brawl stagnating and dying out not even a year later. The only Brawl tournies nowadays are pretty much glorified side events, and as Revival of Brawl shown, Brawl can't come remotely close to carrying its own major alone. There are people who still focus on Brawl and take it seriously, but they're a very small community who play almost entirely on wifi, while the best such player, V115, still hasn't won any of the Brawl events at majors over former top Brawl players that haven't practise it extensively since Smash 4 came out nearly 3 years ago, which I think is evidence enough that these few remaining Brawl players haven't made any major advancements that would invalidate the tier list and matchup chart from four years ago.

So in conclusion, keep the MU spreads listed on each character's article, and if there is one that is largely agreed to be inaccurate (e.g. Pika v MK), then note such in the MU summary. Omega Tyrant 16:27, 25 June 2017 (EDT)

From the above, as well as input from Yellow and PokemonMasterJamal3, it's probably safe to keep Brawl matchup information on their respective character pages, taking note of when there are disputed matchups (which don't seem to exist outside of the Pikachu-MK matchup). As for Smash 64 and Melee, I would support their removal from character pages, though we'll have to be careful while excising this information, as some pages do make specific references to the matchup charts outside of the matchup section, such as in the intro of Kirby's page.

Any opposition? I might get started on this in a few days if no one has a dissenting opinion.

--- Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire, 21:51, 25 June 2017 (EDT)