Forum:Categorizing Special Moves

Forums: Index → Proposals → Categorizing Special Moves

For a while (probably ever since this Wiki's been around), many have argued upon how the special moves the playable characters should be categorized in pages. Some say to to do it by mechanics of the move or their users, others (like myself) say it should be by the name of the move.

Why do I think seperating them by mechanics is not a good idea? Some moves like Ike's, Greninja's, and Cloud's Final Smashes are very similar, if not the same mechanically. But it doesn't make sense to merge those together. Not counting those, if we just did it by mechanics, we'd be adding probably around 40 pages regarding special moves. Someone had suggested that all special moves, aside from the Echo Fighters, should have their own page, in other words, separate them by user. If we did that, we'd be making over 80 pages. It'd still be over 50 if you got rid of the Echo Fighters. With those in mind, we'd be separating them by mechanics or user.

Why do I think they should be separated by name? Because multiple characters share moves. Both Pikachu and Pichu have Volt Tackle, so it would make sense that for those moves to be on the same page. But what about moves like Bomb or Thunder? They have multiple characters who use them that are from different series. Then we'd separate those by series. Since Pikachu, Pichu, and Robin all use Thunder, that will be separated as "Thunder (Pokemon)" since two Pokemon use it, and "Thunder (Robin) since Robin is the only Fire Emblem character who uses it. In the case for Bombs, since Link, Young Link, Toon Link, and Samus use it, it will be separated as "Bomb (Link)" since multiple Links use it [or as "Bombs (Zelda)" since they are all from the Zelda series] and as "Bombs (Samus)" since Samus is the only Metroid character who uses it. With those in mind, we'd be separating both Name and Series.

Some games have moves that are able to be learned by multiple characters. Because of this, they are separated by the move itself. Things like execution usually depend on the character's individual stats, not the move itself. If there was more to the move, (like an extra mechanic that multiple moves apply to) it usually includes a link to the page where the move applies. I know the SmashWiki has its own rules which means it does not have to follow what other Wikis do, and that SmashWiki "not official" which means it’s not necessary to follow what Nintendo says in every circumstance. But I feel we need to find structure regarding this. Like I mentioned, the way to categorize the special moves have probably been discussed ever since this Wiki had been created. Numerous moves have been split, merged, re:split, and re:merged all for different reasons. I want to find a possible concrete solution for this that applies to the majority. Not specifically to myself, registered users, or even the admins. But one that would make sense for the majority to the people that come to the Wiki for information. Which is why I put this Proposal. When commenting, take your time and please do not support or oppose the ideas for yourself or a select few, but for the majority. Thank you. Wolff (talk) 17:03, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

If you really want a concrete answer on whether to split moves based on function, origin, or name, it’s a mix of both and there really isn’t a good answer that can satisfy all three. Wolf’s Blaster has a different name, but it’s entirely different otherwise. Same with Luigi’s Super Jump Punch. They should stay split. Daisy Blossom and Peach Blossom have different names, but are exactly the same otherwise, even down to both of them having no real origin. Dr. Finale and Mario Finale also have no origin and are the same functionally. They should be merged. There are some outliers, such as Counter having different animations for all characters despite clearly being the same move with the same function, or Dream Town Hall and Dream Home having the same functionality and animation but are based on different buildings, and I’m not sure how to argue on those. Splitting moves based on Origin of game is a definite yes though, even regarding exact same functionality. For example, Aether and Soaring Slash are similar functionally, but they should stay split because Chrom isn’t in PoR and Ike isn’t in Awakening. Especially so since Chrom’s Final Smash is Awakening Aether, which is entirely different from Ike’s Aether despite having the same name. Lou Cena (talk) 18:12, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

A few things I've notice regrading what you said:

1. ) Aesthetics alone don't actually change game-play.
2. ) Wolf's Blaster does has the same name as Fox's and Falco's being "Blaster" within the game. Same case with Super Jump Punch.
3. ) Peach's Final Smash comes from Super Mario RPG, while Daisy's is based on Peach's Final Smash.
4. ) Great Aether is different from Awakening Aether as Great Aether is not a move available within the Fire Emblem series. Awakening Aether works more like a regular Aether.
5. ) In the case for Aether vs Awakening Aether in Smash, Aether is a regular special attack and not a Final Smash like Awakening Aether.
6. ) Soaring Slash is not a move within the Fire Emblem series either. Chrom is able to use "similar looking" moves in Fire Emblem Warriors.

Aside from these statements, why do you think it would be "easier" for the "majority of visitors" to the wiki to find the moves separated by mechanics (how the move works) instead of by name? Wolff (talk) 18:43, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

It’s not that it’s “easier”, but it’s less cluttered and more logical to separate moves based on function as well. I agree that in some cases, separation by name works, such as Soaring Slash and Omnislash, but in cases like Super Jump Punch, they function so differently that there’s no reason I’d want to see techniques and strategies of each others’ moves if I only want one of them. Lou Cena (talk) 19:37, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

I understand that you'd wouldn't want that. I am not asking how it would be on one page or not. I'm asking what would make more sense for people who don't know how this wiki works, and easier to find what they are looking. Not what would make things easier personally, I'm talking generally. Ever since this wiki started, the special moves keep getting re:split and re:merged because we do not have a concrete rule for them, and it is not out of the question to assume that in a few cases some people may wait for an undisclosed amount of time to pass just so they can try to re:split or re:merged again simply because they did not agree with the previous carried out conclusion. If I may ask, can you give some reasons why it would be better for people (generally, not personally) to find the moves based on its function instead of its name? I'm afraid your previous examples are not conveying your answer to me. Wolff (talk) 20:27, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

Alright I'm just typing this so I can get a sense of how this is defined in a clear list, with some added points. Please tell me after you have thoroughly read it any changes you wish to see.

1. Mechanics do not primarily factor how a move is merged or split in most cases. If they do it's for some very specific reasons, but generally a move having different mechanics won't effect it's merge status. It is instead based on other factors due to multiple moves having the exact same mechanics but would not make sense to be merged at all.

2. If 2 characters have a special with the same name they must have the qualities listed below in order to have a merge. If even 1 of these qualities is not true then they shall not be merged

1. They must be apart of the same series, and in most cases should be a clone of some sorts, of the other fighter with the move. For instance if both Mario, and Bowser had the neutral special named fire, then they wouldn't be merged unless the function the exact same, mostly because these aren't similar users. If they aren't they are named according to character first then series (see Thunder for an example)
2. They must be used by the same input. This currently isn't an issue with any moves but let's say in the future there is a star fox character with a blaster set to side B. I feel since this is a different kind of move it should not be grouped into the other blasters
3. They have to have a similar origin. For this case take Cape and super sheet, the move merged into cape. Super sheet doesn't have any origin in any dr. mario game, however was given the move to be a doctorlike version of cape. A different case would be fox and falco's blaster which both have the exact same origin. In general this rule shouldn't mean much and is only a factor in severe cases, but should be noted for merging.

3. If a move used by a character in a previous game has had a name change but otherwise works the exact same, then it will stay merged with the original move.

• If a move on an echo is named differently but acts the exact same then it is also stayed merged. (See Daisy Blossom)

4. If a move is merged but has different mechanics, then those different mechanics will be explained in detail with each character having their own section dedicated to that character and the differences from the other versions of the move and it. (See User:Xtra3678/Blaster) This will help organize and keep techs that only work with one of the characters separate from the other characters so that someone won't find Falco techs when looking for information on wolf's blaster, as those would be in a different section.

5. If a merged move has custom moves and another merged move has customs as well, then each custom would be put in the same area but the information is mostly separate. (See Fireball or User:Xtra3678/Blaster)

With this I feel we have a clear well defined ruleset that makes sense. Please discuss under here some changes you wish to be made. If the changes get proper consensus I will change to rules to add that change. XtraTalk Edits 22:12, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

By changing your points to conform to mine, even debunking some of your previous arguments, you’re not making a very good case. If Mario and Bowser’s neutral special was named “Fire”, they’d still be split because they have significantly different functions, but Wolf and Fox’s Blaster should be merged despite having significantly different functions. Just end the arguement, because this is going nowhere. Lou Cena (talk) 12:10, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

Criteria 1, 2, and 3 are all pretty good. Criterion 5 is okay, but it may need some exceptions. Criterion 4 is not. I’ll say this a third time: Wolf’s Blaster has no resemblance whatsoever to Fox and Falco’s, and thise two also have throws and customs Wolf doesn’t have. It should not be merged under any circumstances. Ever. I removed Wolf’s blaster from the draft, and it looks much cleaner. Lou Cena (talk) 01:36, May 13, 2019 (EDT)

I mean, you should probably reread criteria 4 because I don't think it means what you think it does, but it's supposed to just make differences between moves more clear, your probably against criteria 1 which is what makes it so that wolf's special would be merged. I don't really know why you keep on insisting that wolf's blaster is nothing alike the others blasters, because that is just flat out not true. I think at this point you are just being ignorant to whatever anyone has to say, and are being quite toxic as well. I suggest you stop this kind of behavior. XtraTalk Edits 02:08, May 13, 2019 (EDT)

Saying that Wolf’s Blaster is anything like Fox and Falco’s is also flat out wrong, and you’re also being ignorant of what I’m saying by brushing me off repeatedly. Remember how the last time we had this discussion, it was forced closed? This is why we should keep it in the individual talk pages, because merging and splitting moves isn’t a black and white process of whether they have the same name or not. I feel like you’re ignoring the animations, the properties, and the applications of a move by oversimplifying it to a name game. I suggest you stop that behavior as well, because every single time you say something like that, discussion stagnates. Lou Cena (talk) 03:16, May 13, 2019 (EDT)

Excuse me Lou Cena, I have read your points regarding the animations, the properties, and the applications. Is it possible you could include an additional fourth point? I'm afraid the points you made (animations, properties, and applications) are not enough to clarify your side with just those three. Wolff (talk) 17:36, May 13, 2019 (EDT)

My fourth point is that out of everything to worry about, the name of a move is the wrong thing to worry about in the context of merging or splitting pages. If Mario and Bowser both have their neutral specials be named just “Fire”, would you support a merge? They shouldn’t, because those are different moves. Same situation with Fox and Wolf’s Blasters. Mario and Bowser both shoot fire, Fox and Wolf both shoot a gun. The similarities end there. They have different animations, different origins, different applications, and are present in some regular attacks for one but not the other. Lou Cena (talk) 21:37, May 14, 2019 (EDT)

I'm afraid only restating the same points as before without additional information is not very helpful.

Models only change how something looks, which is how Jigglypuff and Wolf got into Smash in the first place. The developers reused the framework from Kirby in 64 and Fox in Brawl over creating Mewtwo for 64 or Krystal for Brawl to save time on making new playable characters. Same framework, different models. Same goes for how Luigi and Daisy became characters of the Mario series in the first place (pallet swaps with sprites and later models before receiving unique models from Mario and Peach).

It doesn’t matter that Wolf is a kind of clone to Fox. The fact of the matter is that his special moves are too different from Fox’s to be merged. Lou Cena (talk) 12:10, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

Animations only change how something moves. In fact, that is how "Clones" are currently being defined on SmashWiki. Ganondorf is considered a clone because his animations are the same, if not similar, to Captain Falcon’s. The reason why we do not group their special moves together regardless of their similarity is because they come from two different series, being Zelda and F-Zero. Similarly, Kat & Ana and Latias and Latios are basically the same assist but from different items (Assist Trophy and Poke Ball). The main difference is that Latias and Latios’ animation has them attack individually instead of simultaneously like Kat & Ana’s animation. Same goes for a few Poke Ball Pokemon, like Chikorita and Snivy using Razor Leaf, or Piplup and Oshawott using Surf. Same move with different visuals and animations.

Yes, those are all good examples of the same moves with different animations. The moves you are arguing to merge, like Luigi’s Fireball, Wolf’s Blaster, or Super Jump Punch, are not those cases. They also have different framerates, different damage, and different properties. Luigi’s Fireball floats, Wolf’s Blaster doubles as a Melee and stuns, and all three Super Jump Punches do radically different things. Lou Cena (talk) 12:10, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

Techs are fan terms used to identify that can be done and not necessarily something the developers had originally intended. Boost grab and Gimp being examples of general techniques. And Desynching and Crown Bouncing being character specific examples. Yes, both Fox and Falco use their blasters within their throws while Wolf does not, but the move is actually their throws, not their blaster. Using their down, up, and back throws activate their laser within the move (being intentional), which could possibly be instead considered a “Fighter Ability” to Fox and Falco, rather than a "tech".

When I said techs, I wasn’t referring to their blasters also being used in their throws. I was referring to the huge differences in function. Not only that, but you’re misunderstanding what counts as an ability. Something that gives out extra moves, gives a meter, or a passive ability qualify for that page. Not using projectiles for your throws. Lou Cena (talk) 12:10, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

With all that being said, I believe that separating the moves by name makes the most sense with making it easier for most people. With a move that has the same name that has multiple users, like "Blaster", should be on the same page. Someone could get confused on how to find differences between the users if they did not know if they were on different pages. With a move like "Daisy Bomber", where it does not have any differences from "Peach Bomber" despite having a different name, the page should be changed to incorporate both moves into the whole page and not just one section. A move used by multiple characters tend to specify like this: “Thunder Jolt (でんげき, Electric Shock) is Pikachu and Pichu's neutral special move”. However, Peach Bomber only mentions Peach. Someone may get confused while looking for information for Daisy if they did not know Peach Bomber applied to both characters. It should then say: Peach Bomber (ピーチボンバー, Peach Bomber) and Daisy Bomber (デイジーボンバー, Daisy Bomber) are Peach and Daisy’s side special move, or Peach Bomber (ピーチボンバー, Peach Bomber), and Daisy Bomber (デイジーボンバー, Daisy Bomber), is Peach’s, and Daisy’s, side special move. (Preferably the first one) Moves like with different names, like Electroshock Arm, that have mechanics that differ from its based move, Upperdash Arm, even if only slightly, gives it enough to be its own page. Because it has different mechanics under a different name (Electroshock Arm attacking at a 30-40˚ angle and 1% more damage in comparison to Upperdash Arm), it probably does not need to be compared to former. Like with Ganondorf and Captain Falcon, a move is separated by series even if shared by character from two different series. Like Pikachu and Pichu's Thunder and Robin's Thunder being separated. I believe it makes finding the moves easier for people to locate moves if we separate them by their names, with the few exception/examples I explained. Wolff (talk) 03:52, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

We have a tabber that shows Peach and Daisy using their moves. And yes, that should be placed in one section because it’s exactly the same. The moves you’re arguing to be merged are similar only in concept. You’ve been repeating yourselves, and I’ve had to repeat myself time and time again to tell you why this isn’t a good idea. I suggest leaving this forum page, because this is going nowhere. Lou Cena (talk) 12:10, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

I avoided talking to much about clones and just kept it to echos in order to avoid the cloneosity debate, but now that youve mentioned it for me youve finally pointed out the elephant in the room that really matters. Blaster (wolf) Is based off of foxes because of wolf's status as a semi-clone. I don't entirely feel like a clones moves should impact the merging procsess because of the general vaugeness of clones, but I feel that it should somewhat factor into it. I have also changed the rules a bit in order to account for clones, and origins. XtraTalk Edits 08:02, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

A clone’s status shouldn’t affect whether or not their special moves are merged, especially if Electroshock Arm and Silver Bow are split with minimal functional differences while Wolf’s Blaster and Falco’s reflector are merged despite only conceptually being the same. Lou Cena (talk) 12:10, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

Chikorita and Snivy's Razor Leaf do deal different damage. Chikorita's does 2% damage on the first hit, while Snivy's first does 7%. Piplup and Oshawott's Surf have different duration. Piplup's lasts 4secs while Oshawott's lasts 5secs (from after they say their names). Fighter Ability is a "certain ability a character has that automatically activates, without the player needing to do anything to make it happen", which means the blasters in the throw could count as it "automatically activates, without the player needing to do anything to make it happen". Same goes for Wolf's blaster. It does have a blade on it, but that can be considered to be more of a Fighter Ability as it "automatically activates". (Both of which I tested) A move can be the same with different properties, which gives people reasons to use certain characters over others (usually those who are referred to as clones). I previously added more information (and research) and now again to support my points, as per SW:NPOV and SW:CONSENSUS. Also Lou Cena, do not start telling people to leave a discussion if they are not vandalizing. You've already done that at least twice (SW:YAV, SW:AGF, and possibly even SW:NPA). And as per talk page rules, you are only suppose to reply to the end of someone's contribution (where their signature is), not in between. Wolff (talk) 17:47, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

I feel like that explains quite well. Even regarding the case with Daisy. I wonder if some cases they could be "Peach Blossom and Daisy Blossom are Peach and Daisy's Final Smash", then list "peaches for flowers will fall". Or "Palutena Bow and Sliver Bow are Pit and Dark Pit's neutral special", instead of mentioning the diffident name later. But it is named on the page as such ("Peach/Daisy Blossom", "Peach Blossom/Daisy Blossom") The names of the redirects show up, so don't think it wouldn't be confusing in that case. Wolff (talk) 22:59, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

DANGIT. when I said Daisy Blossom I meant Daisy bomber, but I guess that would also fit so I'm keeping it. FTR I feel that this should only be a echo rule and not a clone rule, so team star wolf stays. However that feels too weird so maybe we should just scrap that rule altogether. Or maybe make it not work for Final Smashes.XtraTalk Edits 23:05, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

Splitting all shared special moves

I feel like this is the only way to end Talk:Baster (Fox)|the Forum:Moves by name|debates. And by all, I mean ALL. Lucina's specials, Daisy’s, Chrom’s, the five counters. Split all of them, just so that we can have something consistent going on. Lou Cena (talk) 12:28, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

(Adding "=" up there is used for starting a new "discussion", which we are not doing. You are also appear to be doing it again [points #1 & #4].) You are contradicting yourself. Before, you kept stating moves such as Daisy's should be merged as there are no differences, same case with counter. If we separated the special moves by user, we'd be making over 80 pages. You need to add more in-depth information to support and justify such a decision. Is it not easier to find a move under the page of the same name? Counter=Marth-Roy-Ike-Lucina-Chrom, Blaster=Fox-Falco-Wolf, Fireball=Mario-Luigi. Is there perhaps an additional point that you have not yet shared that relates to your reasoning for your splitting decision? Wolff (talk) 21:11, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

This is technically something separate, as the rest of this forum was just talking about specific moves. Also, adding “=“ lets it be more organized. Also, before quoting Toomai’s warning at me, please realize that I never intended to end this discussion yet, but rather, suggest a new compromise. In fact, I hate to say it, but it seems like you’re the one who seems to believe that your stance is universally correct in this case, because this debate has been going on for 3 months and you haven’t let anybody come to a consensus because you keep reopening discussion about this on multiple pages. Also, it is harder to find different moves under the same name, as I’ve so kindly repeated myself about Wolf and Luigi’s neutral specials, because there’s no reason to have info of two vastly different moves on one page. And the reason why I suggested to split all of them was to kill any sort of debate on which moves should be merged or split. I contradicted myself earlier because this is the only way that you and Xtra will listen. I’m offering up a compromise. Take it or leave it. And before quoting a warning directed at me, please look at your own behavior. Lou Cena (talk) 21:51, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

I apologize if I had come off as rude. In regards to the example you gave relating to "reopening" a topic was because we were told (by SerpentKing) that particular topic belong on a different page and to start it on the correct one, (most likely because we were mainly talking about the blasters in that case), and did what I was told.

According to the rules for a Consensus, a strong argument is needed; and according to the rules for Talk Pages, repeating the same argument with nothing new to add is discouraged. With both those rules in mind, that means adding new information to support one's argument is needed. Strong arguments are still needed regardless of a single user's conflicting points as it depends on the stronger argument with Consensus.

I really want to understand why you believe separating moves with the same name and making over 80 pages on the Wiki is a good idea and makes thing easier and more manageable. I am having a very difficult time understanding how practical or beneficial a decision like that would be to the Wiki as a whole. Wolff (talk) 22:31, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

If we decide the question in terms of practicality, I think can compare pages rate of repetition and set a value to decide whether to split, just like the way we distinguish clones.--Capstalker (talk) 02:43, May 16, 2019 (EDT)

I don’t trust ourselves to come up with something practical. Our best bet is to just split them all. That way we can stop these drawn-out arguments on which ones to split and which ones to merge, because they’re all split. Lou Cena (talk) 02:50, May 16, 2019 (EDT)

But we need a better basis to split them all than just stopping "these drawn-out arguments", that is is only a part of basis and why we are having this entire topic to categorize the special moves in the first place. Wolff (talk) 03:03, May 16, 2019 (EDT)

Simply put, there seem to be four main points in the debate: name, origin, functionality and animation. Maybe we can look at them separately, when more half of them are different, they are split.--Capstalker (talk) 03:28, May 16, 2019 (EDT)

Doing that, what do you suggest for each move Capstalker? Wolff (talk) 03:34, May 16, 2019 (EDT)

This discussion is in regards to a proposed change on SmashWiki. The discussion must first meet with a consensus before it is implemented.