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Also sorry about the delay on this, I kind of forgot about it for a second.14:38, February 9, 2020 (EST)
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You're acting in bad faith
I don't want to be obnoxious or annoying, but apart the fact that you're accusing me of favouritism when i'm not, you're not letting me doing my contribute. That thing i put on Bowser's neutral aerial, his up tilt's startup and his forward smash's frame data, it's not opionionated at all, this is a fact. You're also acting in bad faith, as you bash me for an opinion. You can't force an opinion on me, and if you keep on doing this, i'll report. 18.104.22.168 08:36, February 11, 2020 (EST)
- Have you ever stopped to think why we keep removing your edits? You keep claiming none of the stuff you write are opinions, in which they are. If you want to know what sugarcoating is: Kirby being "greatly" buffed is not the same as "noticeably" buffed. "greatly" means he can potentially be mid or upper-mid tier, while "noticeably" means he has been buffed to a good extent, but not enough to be out of the lower tiers. Also you threatening me with an admin report qualifies as block talk, something you do not have the rights to do, so you're the one acting in bad faith.
- And hey since I can't convince you otherwise, why not you give an explanation on how Kirby is "good" and Pikachu is "broken"? Go on, I'm a patiant mushroom. OmegαToαd64 08:48, February 11, 2020 (EST)
Well, i don't think that Pikachu is broken, but i think that it's obnoxious to face. While it lacks range, its fast mobility and attacks, its projectiles and its aerials can cause a lot of pressure. Its recovery is very hard to stop as it has both a very long distance and it's hard to predict Quick Attack. Not to mention that its aerials have good zero-to death potential and only down aerial has over 20 frames of ending lag, all of them can autocancel in a short hop and its easy to capitalize on them and Pikachu's edgeguarding, which is possibly the best in the game. The fact is that since Pikachu can do that, it can force you to camp him with long range moves, as its range is really poor. Simon for istance, has so many options to keep Pikachu at bay and stop it. I just think that Pikachu should receive nerfs to its aerials because it capitalizes a bit too much on them. Its back aerial, for istance, reminds me of Palutena's neutral aerial, as at low percents, you can chain a back aerial to back aerial four or even five times at very low percents. That is a bit too much for me. About Kirby, i think that you're underestimating some of his buffs, especially after patch 6.0.0. For starters, its range has been improved, especially in his aerials, and both neutral and up aerials are faster and slightly safe to use in disadvantage. Not to mention his KO power: His smash attacks are stronger, neutral aerial is now one of the strongest in the game if you hit cleanly, and forward tilt and dash attack now have KO potential. Up aerial is also stronger, to the point it has regained some of the KO power it had lost in Brawl. I think Kirby is underrated because he has good strengths: fast attacks, good KO power, solid combo ability, strong edgeguarding game, and if you think about his size, his range is not actually too bad at least compared to other small characters, and his punish game is solid. This is not Melee Kirby, maybe he is just outclassed by many characters because his disadvantage state is poor. Maybe the only issue i have with him is that his air mobility should be a little faster, at least closer to, let's say, Pikachu, as its air speed is mediocre, but its air acceleration is very high, and it's marginally higher that Kirby's. I don't think that he is mid tier or something like that, but i think that he is underrated and should be ranked a bit higher in a tier list. No offence, but sometimes you guys take things a bit too seriously. Anyway, this is my personal opinion, and you can't attack me on that because it will be an insult, and believe me, i'm very a subsceptible guy who doesn't like when someone says bad things about me.22.214.171.124 09:16, February 11, 2020 (EST)
- Well, i don't think that Pikachu is broken, but i think that it's obnoxious to face.
- So you admit to bias, thus weakening your side.
- its fast mobility and attacks, its projectiles and its aerials can cause a lot of pressure.
- Characters with reflectors can easily deal with his projectiles: choose Mario and cape his thunder jolt, and then there's Ness of course, use his PSI magnet to get free healing. If you know how to air dodge let alone DI, you can escape his aerials.
- Its recovery is very hard to stop as it has both a very long distance and it's hard to predict Quick Attack.
- Quick Attack has been made easier to predict thanks to the arrows literally showing which way he will move. Even before, you could tell how he's going to use the dashes based on where he is when recovering.
- Not to mention that its aerials have good zero-to death potential
- Proof? Have you actually seen professionals get zero 2 deathed by him? Or is it only you just getting comboed to death because you don't know how air dodge? I'll believe it when I see it.
- The fact is that since Pikachu can do that, it can force you to camp him with long range moves, as its range is really poor.
- Nah, I can play close range with him just fine. Just learn to predict his projectile patterns, or at least learn how to short-hop over thunder jolt.
- Its back aerial, for istance, reminds me of Palutena's neutral aerial, as at low percents, you can chain a back aerial to back aerial four or even five times at very low percents. That is a bit too much for me.
- Or maybe you just need to get better at the game. If you still can't deal with bair, why not use the glorious technique known as an air dodge? There's an L button on your controller, why not use it? So in a nutshell, if facing Pikachu is annoying, then just don't fight him, or as the cool kids say these days, "git gud"
wow I cannot believe I said that. Look at what I've been reduced to.
- We're not underestimating Kirby, we're explaining facts. If you think Kirby KOing at 130% with nair is impressive, you've probably never seen Melee Fox's up smash KO at 58%.
- No offence, but sometimes you guys take things a bit too seriously, but anyway, this is my personal opinion.
- You're taking things too seriously. Kirby is still low tier, we can't change that, no matter how hard you try. And big points on ending your message with "this is my personal opinion", as once again you admit to bias.
- and you can't attack me on that because it will be an insult, and believe me, i'm very a subsceptible guy who doesn't like when someone says bad things about me.
- If you think I'm insulting you because I'm explaining the fact that Kirby is mediocre rather than agreeing to your, albiet false, opinion, then grow thicker skin. I never said anything that will qualify as SW:NPA. If you can't stand Kirby being low tier then play 64 where he's considered one of the best characters in the game. OmegαToαd64 09:33, February 11, 2020 (EST)
Hold on a second. Most neutral aerials don't have KO potential. Remember the calculator that you can check out on Kurogame Hammer? I tested with Kirby's back aerial and his post patch neutral aerial at the ledge of Final Destination and they both KOing middleweights at around 105%-110% at the ledge. Not the best, but for a neutral aerial, it is impressive. Besides,Ultimate is not like in SSB64 where you could zero-to-death so easily due to the absurd hitstun and shieldstun or KO Jigglypuff at 30% just with Mario or Luigi's up smash, or in Melee which is a mess to learn all those advanced techniques. Not to mention the competitve enviroment is too strict. If you use characters below Luigi's placement then it's considered trash. About Pikachu's zero-to-deaths, i saw in a video ESAM's Pikachu do that successfully against Elegant's Luigi, and he is the best Luigi player in the world for Ultimate and SSB4. Air dodging is useful, but Pikachu can capitalize on it too, as they generally have more ending lag than in the previous game, and defensive options in general are not as effective as before, so it's more focused on out-of-shield options than rolls or air dodges, cause in the videos i've seen about top players, they never used an air dodge, and i'm not sure they used rolls either. Lastly, i don't know much because i don't have the games or even the consoles. I don't have the Wii U, let alone a Switch. Because of this, i mostly inform myself by data analysis or videos.126.96.36.199 09:46, February 11, 2020 (EST)
- "I tested with Kirby's back aerial and his post patch neutral aerial at the ledge of Final Destination and they both KOing middleweights at around 105%-110% at the ledge. Not the best, but for a neutral aerial, it is impressive."
- But is it a reliable KOing option? Not really.
- "i don't know much because i don't have the games or even the consoles. I don't have the Wii U, let alone a Switch. Because of this, i mostly inform myself by data analysis or videos."
- You just made your opinion even less reliable than before. How can you even test things yourself if you don't own the game? Why do you even bother trying to force us to believe Pikachu is annoying if you can't fight against him? If you want to convince us to believing you, which is highly unlikley, you'll at least have a better chance of accomplishing that impossible goal if you actually own the game. But anyways I'm outta here, and while you're at it, read SW:NPOV and SW:WAR. "So long ay Bowser!" OmegαToαd64 10:02, February 11, 2020 (EST)
I just think that Pikachu should be nerfed. And i'm part of the community here because at least i am helping out in some pages. But anyway, i think that some patches could have been better in terms of character balancing. Some characters could use some nerfs, including Joker, Pikachu and maybe Wario. Remember that Melee mod that i don't remember the name? In this mod, all characters that are ranked below Captain Falcon on the official tier list (9th place down) are drastically buffed so they can compete. While the buffs are useful, this is poor character design, as it can make everyone's tools to abundant and too good without nerfing the top tiers and will make extremely difficult to create an official tier list. Because of this, i think that some characters have to be nerfed more similarly to SSB4 patches. And don't get me started on Project M, it's just a mod of Brawl to be like Melee, and everyone here have received significant buffs.Vittorio Fedele (talk) 10:39, February 11, 2020 (EST)