Talk:Weight/Archive 1

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Does anybody have a weight listing for the original Super Smash Bros.? – MaskedMarth ^{(t c)} 21:43, November 16, 2007 (EST)

I could I still have my SSB, but I don't know where to find the weight.--Fandangox 21:46, November 16, 2007 (EST)

The weight list that is up right now is inaccurate to the results of the weight test I did, which involved comparing everyone's weight on the balances in Mushroom Kingdom. If nobody minds, I can update this with my list.Dajayman (talk) 18:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Brawl Weights

This page could use updating. Is there a list like this out there for Brawl? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.4.29 (talk • contribs) 09:32, 11 March 2008 (EST)

it's been stated multiple times that jigglypuff is the lightest character in brawl. Carbonkirby 14:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The Brawl weights seem off, I've read on other pages that Squirtle is heavier than Ivysaur, so I went to final destination using Mario's side smash on Pokemon Trainer at 45%, and sure enough Ivysaur did fly farther, but then this page disagrees.

Sign your comments. Any way, I don't think Ivysaur weighs less, it could just be that it is floatier, which makes sense since squirtle has superior air speed. Ivysaur is heavier, squirtle is lighter. That's all.--Oxico (talk) 00:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, Type Dissivatage. It's been Proven. Nintendofan146 (talk) 02:04, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The current Brawl weight ranking is nonsense, Jigglypuff is said to be the lightest character in its attributes description; Snake is said to be the 3rd heaviest character, Samus, Wario and Yoshi are said to be heavyweights; Diddy Kong, Meta Knight and Fox are said to be lightweights; Zero Suit Samus is said to be in the lighter characters, but not the lightest. The old ranking list below was better, it sould be back in the article. If not, the weight and fallweight should be listed separately. --Mr Alex (T) 22:38, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

What's the problem, exactly? If you're saying that the characters being ordered alphabetically makes no sense, try clicking on the triangle icons in the headings. Toomai Glittershine The Table Designer 23:49, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

I was actually unaware that thy were ordered alphabetically, I thought it was the merge of the ranking of weight and fallweight, which is nonsense. This page is about showing who's the heaviest and who's the lightest, the characters should be ordered by weight, not alphabetically. If you disagree, it should at least be mentionned that it is ordered alphabetically and how the triangle things work.

--Mr Alex (T) 00:52, September 18, 2009 (UTC)

Organization

I really think there needs to be more groupings than simple "heavy, medium, light". It's hardly fair to put Link in the same weight class as Bowser. didn't there used to be at least 5 weight classes? Personally I think 8 would be better, that makes even groups and they are more similar in weight. I notice that Bowser, DK, Dedede, and possibly Snake and Charizard make the screen shake when they hit the ground at terminal velocity, although this may be more related to fall speed....either way, I may just put some more divisions in a few days if nobody objects. - Gargomon251 (talk) 12:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• Why put them in weight classes anyways, listing them 1-39 is easier imo... and when did the weight scale get completely moved around? Snake bumped from 3 to 9?

I like the current system, because almost all the rankings put down are from character pages, and coming up with names for 8 different weight rankings would be hard. --Oxico (talk) 18:11, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Remove the weight class and change all the information about weight in the character pages. - Timothyung (talk) 14:04, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Is that a command? I am sorry, but I don't take orders from people who don't even have user pages. Let's put it to a vote: Support or Against.--Oxico (talk)

Support- It's just a suggestion...sorry for that. Let's start voting. - Timothyung (talk) 19:51, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Against the system we have is good JtM =^] (talk) 19:59, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Against of course...and who changed the system? The current one was fine and based of off various sources!--Oxico (talk) 22:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Against. And by the way, I came here hoping to find if Falco has any decent weaknesses. MasterKnight (talk) 02:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Melee Table

What happened to the big fancy, table with the poison metal giant, etc. weights too? or was it not that necassary? Smorekingxg456 (talk) 23:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Not only was it not necessary, but unfair that only melee got such a large and complex table.--Oxico (talk) 00:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Finally we can agree on something! That dumb table was a waste of space. --Blue Ninjakoopa (talk) 01:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

No, that table was fantastic. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia of all information related to smash. Unfortunately, much of our information has been based either on subjective views (which are to be expected in this kind of wiki) based on anecdotal evidence at best. This table was one of the best examples of how to show comparisons between character weights. As for it being "unfair" that Melee was the only game that had one, that was the only one that had been researched. If someone could produce another table of statistics like that for the other games, we would show it. Maybe I'll look into it, but things are pretty busy right now, what with me moving in two days. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 03:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow, when was that deleted?? I have to pay more attention to these sorts of articles. --RJM ^Talk 02:01, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

It was deleted at 23:44, 11 August 2008 by Blue Ninjakoopa

I liked having the table and I don't think there's a "fair" or "not fair" when comes to non-user articles Smorekingxg456 (talk) 16:43, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Can somebody just edit it in, or do we have to have some big arguement about it? Smorekingxg456 (talk) 23:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I put it back as soon as I learned it was gone, so yep, this discussion is pretty much closed. --RJM ^Talk 18:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

All who agree with my version of the page

C'mon, my version makes more since. Sign your name below here if you're on the cool side. --Blue Ninjakoopa (talk) 01:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

What is "your version"? I don't like it as it is right now, having only three weight divisions overgeneralizes. I'd rather have MORE divisions, or NONE. - Gargomon251 (talk) 01:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Never mind, it changed right after I logged in. This is fine, but the "light" category seems a little full...are these based on calculated weights? - Gargomon251 (talk) 01:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes they are. --Blue Ninjakoopa (talk) 19:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

No offense, but even if it is "cool", but holds no support for the wiki, then it doesn't belong. I personally like this revision, as it strongly resembles the old one. (Wolf O'Donnell (talk · contributions) 02:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC))

Don't hate on me because of my username. --Blue Ninjakoopa (talk) 02:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, your weight rankings weren't even correct from the git-go (Samus is heavier than Ganondorf in both Melees) and made no mention of the weight difference between PAL and NTSC. You don't really need weight "classes" because the game isn't played based on weight class and the only thing that matters is your characters weight RELATIVE to your opponent in a given match. I mean, it's great that you can call Pichu "light" and DK "heavy" but having accurate, mathematically-calculated weight rankings is about as unbiased as you're gonna get--and the information is more useful to boot! These should be simple numerical lists, I feel. However, if you insist on breaking it out into weight categories, can we at least not have BIG section headers? It overemphasizes the importance of labeling the characters with a weight class. --RJM ^Talk 02:22, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Fuck you!!!

--Blue Ninjakoopa (talk) 01:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Right, okay. That makes sense. (?) --RJM ^Talk 07:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, grow up. (Personal attack striked). Old revision please? (Wolf O'Donnell (talk · contributions) 07:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC))

I am satisfied with the current layout as of this edit. - Gargomon251 (talk) 11:18, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Weight change

Fox's uncharged up smash kills Wario at 99% on Final Destination, and kills Yoshi at 98%. The list says that Yoshi weighs more. --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 00:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Brawl weight list

OK, this is a mess. Why is there a discrepancy between this list and MrSilver's? Why do we have "weight classes" when we could list the exact values instead? Smash isn't Mario Kart. – MaskedMarth ^{(t c)} 00:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to fix. ;) --Sky (t · c · w) 00:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Will do. – MaskedMarth ^{(t c)} 01:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

WHOA!

I appreciate the update, MM, but you've got everything wrong! Jigglypuff shouldn't be in the same weight class as Bowser! My version was correct. It took me a while to make the calculations! Koopa Klaus 01:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

There's no such thing as a "weight class" in Smash. And what were your testing methods? MrSilver made his methods clear in his Smashboards post. – MaskedMarth ^{(t c)} 01:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, not to malign your contributions, but I'd trust MrSilver over pretty much anybody on these types of matters. – MaskedMarth ^{(t c)} 01:47, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I guess I can accept that. =) Koopa Klaus 02:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Mr silver weight list is rong

just see this post http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210557

It's a bit wordy...

"Firstly, for the purpose of calculation of knockback, every character has two associated constants, namely Weight 1 and Weight 2." What the hell? Can someone make sense of this? Ike's Best Buddy^{Here, my Friends}

In addition, how does Charizard weigh the same as sonic? - Gargomon251 (talk) 17:30, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

uh, guys?

The brawl list is off, there is a thread about the weight on SWF, and all I can remember is that King Dedede is the heaviest. I'll see if I can find the thread. JtM =^] (talk) 16:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Bowser is the heaviest character in the gang, Dedede only seems heavier because he has more falling speed. Blue Ninjakoopa 00:15, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Olimar

I heard Olimar's weight changes depending on the number/type of Pikmin, so couldn't his place change, assuming this is true? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kill Maim (talk • contribs) 0:11, 9 August 2009

If it were true, then yes, it would affect his place, but I doubt that it's true. When Olimar gets launched, his Pikmin follow him through the air, even if the attack didn't hit them, so it seems unlikely that they would affect his weight as no force has to act on them directly to move them. PenguinofDeath 09:43, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Organization of brawl weight list

This thing is a mess. I can't figure out who's the heaviest, or the lightest. I think that the entire thing should be made numerical order of weight, or perhaps another list, but keep the alphabetical one. --Kill Maim (talk) 07:35, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not a mess - all you've got to do to see the list in numerical order by weight is click the little symbol to the right of the word "Weight" at the top of the middle column. That will order the entire table by the values in that column. PenguinofDeath 08:05, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Kay than nvm.

Someone should completly revise this article. Snake is NOT heavier than Ganondorf, and Yoshi is a lightweight not anywhere near 107. Tis wiki is full of biased opinions and there are rarely any facts. Can we just get rid of opinions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by B-52 (talk • contribs) 17:06, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

The Brawl values are taken straight from the files used by the game, there is 0% chance they are wrong. Yes, Yoshi is surprisingly heavy, and Snake is heavier than Ganondorf. Those are the facts. Toomai Glittershine 17:11, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

How are these files extracted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by B-52 (talk • contribs) 17:18, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Sign your comments using ~~~~ Doctor Pain 99 (CTE) 17:20, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure exactly, but there are various places on the internet where you can download them, and a few programs (such as Project Smash Attack) that you can use to read them. Toomai Glittershine 17:23, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

What exactly is "fallweight"?

Does anyone know what "fallweight" actually DOES? 67.121.115.130 02:41, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

As I understand it, fallweight is an extra value used in knockback calculation. Based on the values, it appears to give more knockback to fastfallers and less to slowfallers on low-knockback attacks. I think they did this so all characters are more equally treated by multi-hit attacks such as Fox's fair. Toomai Glittershine eXemplary Logic 02:51, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks67.121.115.130 12:28, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

The tier list like things

I say no. Unless this has reached a clear consensus Doc, do not undo the edit.--MegaTron1XD 13:10, 30 October 2010 (EDT)

I say YESH! We should, it would look good and will attract ppl more. Doc King (talk) 13:18, 30 October 2010 (EDT)

Wiki should never be about looks. If it will screw something up, than why do it? You'll ruin content. If its inconsistent, then it will look ugly as well.--MegaTron1XD 13:19, 30 October 2010 (EDT)

It won't ruin anything, It will just make it look more professional and not so dull. Doc King (talk) 13:22, 30 October 2010 (EDT)

It will ruin something. Consistency. Seeing as how you freaked over a tier list being crooked, this will screw things up evcen more.--MegaTron1XD 13:23, 30 October 2010 (EDT)

I have tried this kind of idea several months ago (there's no history of it because it was only in preview mode). While the SSB64 one looked good and the SSBB one looked acceptable, there was nothing that could be done to do the same for the SSBM one. The NTSC/PAL split will make one of the two columns look out of order. This kind of thing isn't obvious and is actually expected when it's just columns of numbers, but when you add colour in there people expect things to be always in order. Splitting things into two tables makes it harder to understand the differences between the versions, which is kind of the point of having them together in a sortable table in the first place. So, since the SSBM one can't mesh with the other two, it should not be done. Toomai Glittershine 13:29, 30 October 2010 (EDT)

Brawl Weight List fixes

On one of Omega Tyrant's smash boards post, he put that some of the stuff on the Brawl Weight list was wrong like Samus is heavier than Ganon and Wolf is lighter than Mario and Ivysaur and stuff like that. I just want to see if Omega Tyrant agrees with me or not on fixing the Brawl weight chart. Doc King (talk) 23:08, 24 December 2010 (EST)

If you mean this (where OT says launch speeds of Critical Hit at 300% don't match the weight list), then nope. Launch speed is not based on weight only; there are a few other factors like gravity. For example, Wolf has a higher gravity than Mario, and since knockback is increased for higher-gravity characters, he would appear to be lighter. Toomai Glittershine 23:18, 24 December 2010 (EST)

That was from a long time ago Doc (before I even joined the Wiki), before I knew vital information like gravity. Just ignore it. Omega Tyrant 00:31, 25 December 2010 (EST)

Colors

Is there any way I could divide the charts by weight class using color? I'm not sure what coding I could use. Blue Ninjakoopa^(Talk) 10:52, 16 July 2011 (EDT)

Red for the heavy characters, orange for middleweight and green for lighweight?--PSIWolf (T • C • E) 10:53, 16 July 2011 (EDT)

Oh wait that isn't what you meant I think...--PSIWolf (T • C • E) 10:54, 16 July 2011 (EDT)

It is, kind of; I'd actually like to include more colors than that. It would look similar to the charts for the tier lists, except maybe without the images (if that's too complicated) and it'd be vertical. Blue Ninjakoopa^(Talk) 11:24, 16 July 2011 (EDT)

You can use variations of colours for that.--PSIWolf (T • C • E) 11:26, 16 July 2011 (EDT)

And you can use the normal table code for the chart, I think.--PSIWolf (T • C • E) 11:29, 16 July 2011 (EDT)

This has been discussed before two sections up; my comment for this is the same as my comment there. Also, there is no such thing as a "weight class" in Smash Bros.; any attempts to make such a division would be arbitrary and very hard to rationalize. Toomai Glittershine The Honcho 11:53, 16 July 2011 (EDT)

Really? I think it would be pretty nifty and would make the chart sort of easier to read, but I guess it would be hard to tell where heavy stops and medium begins and where medium stops and light begins (and so on for more divisions). We know for sure that Bowser is heavy, Mario is medium, and Jigglypuff is light, though. Blue Ninjakoopa^(Talk) 12:20, 16 July 2011 (EDT)

Fox and Pikachu

I tested how early characters could be star KO'd by Fox's up smash in training mode recently. This article states that Fox is one unit heavier than Pikachu. He also falls faster. In Brawl, falling speed isn't as variable with weight as it was in Melee; in Melee, Falco, a lightweight, dies later from an up smash at 100% (or not at all, depending how close he is to the blast ceiling) than Bowser, the heaviest character in the game. Since Bowser didn't fall fast, he died earlier from attacks with upward knockback than Fox, Captain Falcon, and Falco. But I digress. Could one explain to me why Fox dies at 81% from his own up smash and Pikachu dies at 85%, despite being both floatier and lighter than Fox? Blue Ninjakoopa^(Talk) 17:19, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

We don't know the knockback formula, so I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think it's the result of the gravity factor: at least in Brawl, characters with higher gravity take more knockback. Fox's gravity is 0.175 while Pikachu's is 0.087. I think they did this so that low-knockback combos link more reliably on characters of differing gravities. Toomai Glittershine The Awesome 17:26, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

Speaking of this phenomenon, I been thinking of putting up a chart showing how much knockback each character sustains, since weight is not the sole factor in that regard. Omega Tyrant 17:45, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

Thanks guys. I wasn't aware of gravity. And go for it, OT, I'm curious to know about this defense mechanic. Blue Ninjakoopa^(Talk) 17:55, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

Hold on, isn't weight defined as how far a character gets launched? Mr. Anon (talk) 18:00, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

Yes, for horizontal knockback. Upward knockback is a lot different. You have to take falling speed and gravity into account. Blue Ninjakoopa^(Talk) 18:21, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

OK, I've done a bit of testing to see if we can work out the weight formula. I used Fox's up smash on a variety of characters at 0% and compared their knockback.

Jigglypuff: 2436 mph

Mario: 2297 mph

Fox: 2375 mph

Bowser:2220 mph

Pikachu: 2379 mph

These are the knockbacks at 0%, and it appears that it does indeed do more knockback to Pikachu than Fox. I'm going to try testing at higher percentages. Mr. Anon (talk) 18:32, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

How'd you get the speed in miles per hour? Blue Ninjakoopa^(Talk) 18:37, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

Alrighty, the knockbacks on the same characters at 100% are as follows:

Pikachu: 7248 mph

Fox: 7682 mph

Jigglypuff: 7436 mph ???

Mario: 6657 mph (also ???)

Bowser:6360 mph

OK, so it seems that this is more of a knockback scaling issue than a knockback issue. Note that the freshness bonus should be taken into account when creating the formula. Mr. Anon (talk) 18:44, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

Edit conflict: BNK, after you have a Brawl, the results screen shows the max launcher speed. Mr. Anon (talk) 18:44, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

Oh, and as a bonus, I tested the knockbacks on Wario, who's falling speed is interesting compared to his weight. At zero percent, it does 2264 mph. At 100%, it does 6477 mph. Happy calculating! Mr. Anon (talk) 18:48, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

It's not a knockback scaling issue, a chart I compiled utilised tests at 0%, and high gravity characters still sustained more knockback. It's not falling speed either, as falling speed has no impact on the knockback a character suffers. Omega Tyrant 19:00, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

Just wait for me to put my chart up, as I already have the data. Omega Tyrant 19:00, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

"Hold on, isn't weight defined as how far a character gets launched?"

Yes and no. Weight by itself doesn't affect distance at all, it only affects launch speed. In fact, air acceleration and air friction are likely to be the biggest factors in terms of how far you go sideways, while gravity (not falling speed) would be the biggest factor upwards. In other words, I'm pretty sure Yoshi will fly farther than Wario even if they both take 2000 units of knockback, simply because Wario slows down faster. Weight only matters for the calculation of the force, once you start moving it's irrelevant.

As a result, while the knockback forces reported by the game are only based on weight and gravity, KO percentages are a combination of that plus a character's natural tendancy to stop moving in the air. Toomai Glittershine The Awesome 19:08, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

I believe we were just talking about the knockback a character sustains, rather than how well they would survive hits. As for what you said though, why they do play a role, they are not the biggest factors. While Wario does outlast Yoshi horizontally (before momentum cancelling), he does not outlast the heavier Snake, despite him outdoing Snake in those categories. If air acceleration and air friction were the biggest factors, surely Wario would be outlasting Snake here.

And for gravity, I think you got it wrong. King Dedede has a significantly greater vertical endurance than other characters, while only having above average gravity. If gravity was the largest factor, Bowser, who has one of the highest gravity values, should be outlasting him handily. Omega Tyrant 19:43, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

Without being able to induce exact numbers of knockback, Dedede's higher vertical survivability might be just attributed to taking lower knockback because he has a lower gravity. It's pretty much impossible to tell without the knockback formula. Toomai Glittershine The Awesome 21:16, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

Then if that was the case, the heavier, but lower gravity Snake should be outlasting Dedede vertically. As such, falling speed is certainly more important in determining vertical endurance than gravity is. Omega Tyrant 13:17, 24 August 2011 (EDT)

Old conversation but possibly a (minor) new lead: The hackers think they've found a value for "vertical friction". Snake's is 0.005, Dedede's is 0.006. Marth and Link have comparatively low values (0.00375 and 0.0038); ZSS has an incredibly high value (0.5, next highest is Jigglypuff's 0.0375). Any of that match your testing? Toomai Glittershine The Jiggy 16:11, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

From looking at characters' vertical KO percentage, vertical friction wouldn't have a greater vertical impact than falling speed. Zamus gets KO'd vertically considerably sooner than Falco (while living just as long horizontally without DI/MC), despite being only 1 unit lighter, having lower gravity, and sustaining less knockback overall (with Falco's only significant advantage here being significantly faster falling speed). For Marth's low value, he survives as long as Toon Link vertically (and Toon Link outlives him horizontally). Toon Link sustains less knockback, though Marth falls considerably faster.

Before I make final conclusions though, I'll need Sheik's vertical friction stat. Her base vertical endurance is worse than what knockback sustained + falling speed would indicate (unless I made a mistake with her back when I did my momentum cancelling testing). Omega Tyrant 00:17, 25 March 2012 (EDT)

Sheik's "vertical friction" is a rather high 0.03, so yeah it doesn't seem like it has a correlation.

Now what about the details of this testing? If it involved fast falling, then yes it would make sense for (fast) falling speed to affect vertical endurance. Toomai Glittershine The Metroid 11:03, 25 March 2012 (EDT)

The percentages looked at were gotten from pure vertical trajectories, with no DI or momentum cancelling (which means no fast falling). Omega Tyrant 11:52, 25 March 2012 (EDT)

Did this testing include knockback values at all, or just KO percentages? Toomai Glittershine The Loony 17:25, 25 March 2012 (EDT)

Momentum cancelling#Character abilities chart

No knockback values are on there, though how much knockback each character sustains can be observed here Knockback#Knockback chart. Omega Tyrant 17:34, 25 March 2012 (EDT)

How?

Shouldn't there be a section to finding out how much someone weighs? King KirbyD (talk) 15:14, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

The page already says how much everyone weighs, how does your question have any relevance? Toomai Glittershine The Pan-Galactic 16:06, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

So you just gotta read the article to find out. ..... The Autistic 17:35, 25 March 2012 (EDT)