Talk:Top 100 Smash Bros. Players of All Time

Notability

Ranks such as RetroSSBMRank, and ones by EventHubs and Cloudhead are arguably more notable than a redditors project that just started a couple weeks ago. This isn't bagging on the person nor even their rank, but the notability of the rank itself. For example, EventHubs is a popular site and so when they compile a rank, it's worth mentioning as opposed to one person's project. Another example would be how Wikipedia has an article for Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time, and, yes, while that list is entirely subjective and just their opinion as much as any other persons', it being compiled by the Rolling Stone makes it noteworthy to mention. Now imagine if a guy on reddit decided to make his own top 500 songs list? Would that rank be notable enough to have an article on Wikipedia? Very likely not. Now whether this rank gains popularity and acceptance amongst the community in the future is something we don't know yet, and I just think the gun might've been jumped on giving it an article. VoqéoT 19:58, December 4, 2019 (EST)

It's not like the person who is putting together the list has not done their research, they mention in their methodology post (https://old.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/dz5hbh/top_100_smash_players_of_all_time/) that they have been working on the project for many months and we already have a page for their RetroSSBB Rank (https://www.ssbwiki.com/RetroSSBB_Rank). Also it's important to note that this is one of the first big rankings that sets to rank players between multiple-games which definitely should make it notable. The only thing I would suggest is to change the title so that it shows that only 1999-2019 were counted. JFMV763 (talk) 20:42, December 4, 2019 (EST)

Oppose, as per reason above. If we get rid of this page, we'd also have to get rid of RetroSSBB Rank. Crazy456Rhino (talk) 14:24, December 16, 2019 (EST)

Oppose for the reasons above as well, unless RetroSSBB Rank is removed as well. The methodology is very legitimate and could potentially make waves in how we rank players in the future. --Plague von Karma 09:58, December 24, 2019 (EST)

This article's notability is extremely dubious. As far as I can see, this is basically just one random reddit user's opinion, and the oppose reasons here do nothing to convincingly say why this ranking should be treated legitimately by the wiki. It doesn't matter if they have a "methodology", it's one person's (of questionable authority, who even is "orange_ssbu"?) extremely subjective opinion, and it's not like the "methodology" is some objective arbiter (besides the subjectiveness of what to factor, how the hell do you measure "metagame impact"?). And it's not like the Smash reddit was in huge approval of this ranking; the initial post only got 215 upvotes, while the final post peaked at 419, decent numbers but nothing to show this as having some mass approval that could be argued as notability. If we accept this article, you might as well make an article for anybody's rankings that made a long reddit post for it.

Delete this shit Omega Tyrant 08:01, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Delete: Permanently subjective article, the fact that this article is basing it off of one reddit user's opinion just makes the notability even more questionable. Omegα Toαd, the Toαd Wαrrior. (BUP) 09:03, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Delete: No matter the methodology a cross-Smash ranking is bound to be subjective and filled with flaws, especially a PR from a rather unknown player. CookiesCreme 10:46, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Gonna elaborate on this point. I know all PRs are subjective, but for the major PRs they're usually run by people who have experience in creating PRs and have a pretty good methodology. I honestly don't know what orange_ssbu's credentials are. Furthermore, he's ranking 100 players using his own judgement and methodology, the latter which I believe is rather questionable. CookiesCreme 16:00, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Delete it: Thegameandwatch The Nerd 10:50, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Delete: As per above. VoqéoT 14:04, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Delete: Would be more trustworthy from Panda Global or OrionRank Dick Johnson (talk) 15:00, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Keep: Probably not going to change anyone's mind with this but, even though it is one single person's project, I don't think that should stop it from being removed. It's not like their are a large amount of multi-game rankings out there that attempt to do the same thing and keeping this up shows a good perspective of how a member of the scene viewed it's top 100 players at the 20th anniversary of the series. If we restrict pages on this wiki to only PR's from organizations with large backings and larger public support, we forget the grassroots nature that the Smash Bros. scene formed in and how in many instances it does come down to one person's interpretation of things that in turn make up future perceptions of history. Also PR's are subjective no matter how many people work on them, if we remove one we might as well just remove them all JFMV763 (talk) 15:42, February 16, 2021 (EST)

We aren't deleting this page because it's not from an organization (heck OrionRank is mainly run by 2 people). Notability is the issue here: it's from someone who doesn't have that many credentials when it comes to making power rankings, and we can't just have random Reddit PRs on the wiki. CookiesCreme 15:54, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Like I said before, there's nothing that differentiates this ranking from any other random person making their own personal ranking and then having an article here for it. This isn't remotely similar to other rankings, which are A: created by a panel of people with known legitimate authority in the ranking's subject, and B: are accepted by the relevant community as legitimate and used for the various purposes that rankings serve (such as seeding, Arcadian eligibility, sponsorship opportunities, etc.). If any other random person created their own personal ranking and posted it to reddit or twitter or whatever, it wouldn't have any less notability to it than orange_ssbu's, and well surely you can see how ridiculous it would get at that point when other randos start making articles for their personal rankings and use this article's existence as precedent for their article's validity.

I don't know why you have such a stake in an article for this guy's rankings, are you orange_ssbu or their friend? Omega Tyrant 19:26, February 16, 2021 (EST)

I just don't think this wiki should be so gatekeepy when it comes to content, it's not like PR's like this are a dime a dozen and I feel that it could be interesting to compare this PR to possible future PR's that attempt to do the same thing. JFMV763 (talk) 19:50, February 16, 2021 (EST)

There's a big difference between a ranking made by professionals that have strong community backing (such as tier lists), and a ranking made by some random person on reddit that had no influence among the competitive Smash community. Articles like this are no different from just some random person's userpage, which is what EagleRank literally is, except this somehow slipped into the mainspace. If let this stay then we might as well move my casual tier list into the mainspace. Omegα Toαd, the Toαd Wαrrior. (BUP) 19:57, February 16, 2021 (EST)

I don't see anyone else trying to make a ranking for Smash Wii U or a multi-game rank. By deleting these pages we lose parts of our history and discourage people from even attempting to make their own PR's. If you find it unvaluable that is fine but value is not something that is or should be universal. JFMV763 (talk) 20:05, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Except that isn't something the Wiki gets to decide. Had said list suddenly gained major traction and actually saw usage outside of being a simple musing, then we would report on it. It's not like Greatest of all time which is a frequent discussion point among the community and is a big part of metagame development. The attention and relevance it has is the salient point: that's exactly why the Wiki is backing away from reporting on the SBR tier lists, because to the community they're worth almost as much as any fanmade tier list. - EndGenuity (talk) 20:13, February 16, 2021 (EST)

"I don't see anyone else trying to make a ranking for Smash Wii U or a multi-game rank."

Just supposedly being the "first" doesn't give any more cred, someone else makes their own ranking and then what?

"By deleting these pages we lose parts of our history"

So the opinions of random people with little-to-no acceptance by the community is now "history"?

"and discourage people from even attempting to make their own PR's."

This is just silly, the wiki ain't going out there and taking down people's reddit/twitter/whatever posts about their rankings, yours and orange_ssbu's rankings still exist outside the wiki, and people have been just fine posting their own rankings/tier lists/matchup charts on those other sites without trying to seek validation from SmashWiki. We're just not going to fill your need for validation by letting you post userspace content in the mainspace. Omega Tyrant 20:21, February 16, 2021 (EST)

I'm going to close with this: All PR's ultimately seek validation and some get it more than others. It's a slippery slope to determine which amount of validation results in keeping a PR in comparison to deleting it. Despite relative growth over recent years the competitive Smash Bros. scene is still very niche and I doubt the vast majority of the world's population would be able to tell you what the PGR is, despite it being so big among the competitive Smash Bros. community. I have nothing more to add. JFMV763 (talk) 21:09, February 16, 2021 (EST)

The slippery slope here is allowing articles like these in our main spaces, again what is the difference between a ranking made by you/orange_ssbu and any other random person on reddit/twitter with their own ranking/tier list/matchup chart? Why do your rankings deserve an article anymore than LinkMaster420's personal rankings? Omega Tyrant 21:34, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Why do any rankings deserve anything? If you set up an arbitrary barrier you might as well disallow all power rankings since they are all made by either individuals or groups of them, regardless of how much acceptance they have. The 2018-2019 SSBBRank has under 2000 views on Youtube, yet it is accepted because it is made up by people whom this wiki considers worthy. In the end it comes down to whether the ranking is perceived as worthy or not. If you think it's not, that's fine go ahead and delete the page, but don't think this argument is magically going to go away anytime soon. JFMV763 (talk) 6:55, February 17, 2021 (EST)

What separates this ranking from any other rando with their own ranking or tier list? Throwing out buzzwords doesn't help your case, regardless of it's "gatekeepy" the wiki needs notability limits in place; the wiki intends to be a serious professional endeavor, and is explicitly not a place for people to just create their own personal articles for them and their friends. Otherwise this wiki, and its relevant templates and categories, will be clogged up with a bunch of useless articles for random people and their opinions, that would then drown out the articles on the actually legitimate subjects. Do you have any idea what this wiki's Smasher namespace looked like in the early Brawl era when we didn't have notability limits in place? If you want a wiki where you can create articles on whatever rankings you want, you can go to Wikia and create your "Rankings wiki" or whatever. Omega Tyrant 20:09, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Delete this page. This has already been discussed. Aidan, the Lovely Rurouni 20:15, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Delete: Since it's made by some Reddit user, I don't think there's any relevance to this page. Sure, it gives some idea to readers about the best players out there, but there is a chance that this list might include the user's bias. Also, it's a little silly that we're now making pages about things made by Reddit users (no offense to those who have a Reddit account). SonDaniel (talk page) 20:18, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Regardless of whatever "methodology" was used to construct this list, it is still at the end of the day a mere opinion that doesn't amount to much. There is a reason we don't report on Smash character speculation despite how reasonable the arguments people make for it are: it would open the floodgates to rampant speculation and editorialization that really don't inform readers about anything whatsoever. Delete. - EndGenuity (talk) 20:21, February 16, 2021 (EST)