Talk:Tier list/Archive 6

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Tl;dr version of the below: Don't edit this page unless you have something to contribute about what the SBR said and the content of this article. We don't care if you disagree with them or tiers in general; that's for the forums.

We understand that tiers are a point of contention among members of the Smash community. However, this page discusses the tier lists that the Smash Back Room (for Melee and Brawl) have posted. These are accepted by almost every high level player, and as such are important and notable content to this wiki. Discussion on this talk page should be limited to the content of the page, not a debate on the existence or ordering of tiers. Those should both be addressed in the Forums (Forum for Brawl, forum for Melee).

new SSB64 tier list

I would like it if smash back room would update it. ..... The secret number well? 22:49, 21 September 2011 (EDT)

I'd love to see that happen too, but that's ever gonna happen...Melee was lucky to get its latest tier list, and no one plays 64 competitively anymore. :/ ReiDemon 22:53, 21 September 2011 (EDT)

Did you read the tl;dr? Blindcolours TONDA GOSSA. 23:59, 21 September 2011 (EDT)

No, it was somewhat a legitimate question: Asking if the SSB64 tier list will be updated. Still, I'm not sure whether it fulfills SW:TALK. In any case, I'll answer. Smash 64 has been out for more than a decade, and its metagame has been pretty well solved through years of Isai dominating with Pikachu, Fox, and Kirby, with his Pikachu in particular being virtually undefeated. In addition, the game is simple enough so that it has been possible to figure out who is the best at KOing, recovering, etc. That doesn't mean there won't be another tier list, just explaining why updates are rare. Mr. Anon (talk) 01:11, 22 September 2011 (EDT)

Kinda offensive...

I think we should delete the first two sentences about the controversy. It's not neutral. Here are the sentences: "It is a common misconception among new players, and even some experienced players, that all the characters in the series are equal. It is thought amongst them that the strengths and weaknesses of characters balances them out."

I'm anti-tier, and I find this quite offensive. ForgingIron (talk) 18:26, 29 September 2011 (EDT)

It may not be neutral, but it is true. Characters are attempted to be balanced out, but that is impossible in most fighting games. MegaTron1XD 18:35, 29 September 2011 (EDT)

The sentence is true, just honestly tell us how Kirby is equal to Jigglypuff in Melee, or how Ganondorf is equal to Snake in Brawl (in both cases, the latter character is better than the former in nearly every way, doing what they can do, and so much more).

Also, we don't care you're "anti-tier" and find this "offensive", we report facts on this Wiki, and it is fact it is impossible to perfectly balance a game with such diversity. Omega Tyrant 19:22, 29 September 2011 (EDT)

Note that the precence of certain clones such as Jigglypuff and Luigi in SSB64 and Pichu in Melee, who very much appear to be intentionally worse than their originals, is certainly a counterexample against the claim that the games was meant to be 100% balanced. Mr. Anontalk 20:38, 29 September 2011 (EDT)

I wouldn't say Luigi was ever designed to be worse than Mario. Jigglypuff (SSB) and Pichu are arguable, but remember that the series isn't designed for just two-player matches with no items - as possibly suggested on one of Pichu's trophies, they were designed to be played with more importance on letting the other opponents duke it out while poking in and out with needling attacks and items. That's not being intentionally underpowered, that's being designed with strengths that tournament conditions deny. Toomai Glittershine The Steppin' 23:12, 29 September 2011 (EDT)

I wouldn't call being designed to have to rely on random items to be a strength, but an intentional underpowering. It's not like Pichu was designed to be more capable at wielding items than other characters. Omega Tyrant 23:36, 29 September 2011 (EDT)

I'm not in favor of deleting the lines, but I would like to suggest a change of the word 'misconception'. In the wikipedia article about neutrality, it says to 'Prefer Non-Judgemental Language.' The word 'misconception' assumes that the anti-tiers' view is incorrect. This is not neutral for an article. I apologize for lacking knowledge on linking to other websites, but for reference, here is the link to the wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV Just as a footnote, I am in favor of tiers. Yiran (talk) 09:57, 3 January 2012 (EST)

It is fact that characters aren't perfectly balanced, and anyone who says otherwise is pretty much delusional :/ Omega Tyrant 10:05, 3 January 2012 (EST)

Well, I believe it is a fact, but a notable amount of smashers (or it wouldn't be noted in the article) disagree with us and the other notable portion of smashers. Yiran (talk) 10:52, 3 January 2012 (EST)

Icons

I think the icons for the tier lists should be remade. The current ones also show a part of a stage and sometimes the heads are a bit turned. We could use the character selection screen icons, for example. I can make screenshots of them, especially Brawl's. Is that a good idea?-- PSIWolf (T • C • E) 05:40, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

I would like to post an addition here:

The quality of the icons could be far better, and everything has to be at its best on SW. That's our goal. At least better than SmashWikia, who also uses that icons.-- PSIWolf (T • C • E) 05:45, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

The current images used aren't difficult to identify, and in my opinion, they're more interesting to look at than the character select portraits. Omega Tyrant 12:27, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

I'm in agreement with OT; the character select images by themselves would be pretty bland. : /

That said, I would suggest changing the icons to be larger, to the size of the Melee and 64 icons. Brawl icons look pretty small now that I think of it. ReiDemon 15:35, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

I believe the reason the Brawl icons are of that size is because then they match the stage icons given by the game. So we'd have to redo all those as well. Toomai Glittershine The Awesome 17:10, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

How do you make those icons anyway? ZeldasmashFile:ZeldaSymbol.pngTalk 19:56, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

I think the descision has been made, but I'll oppose just in case. It's nice to see something more different, instead of just the normal artwork. ToastUltimatum Complaints Box 08:23, 21 October 2011 (EDT)