Forum:Special move pages

Forums: Index → Proposals → Special move pages

This discussion is in regards to a proposed change on SmashWiki. The discussion must first meet with a consensus before it is implemented.

In general, there seems to be a disagreement on how special move pages should be handled. I attempted to remedy part of this a while back, to no avail, but with recent information, I'd not only like to reignite the discussion, but cement how we should go about this with what we currently have and what we will have in the future.

To start, I will reiterate a point I made in the aforementioned remedying, in which I stated that special move page names should be an exception to the "SmashWiki is not official" rule. SW:OFFICIAL states, in regards to page names, "situations where a highly recognized fan term has massively and demonstrably eclipsed the official term in usage will sometimes be handled on a case-by-case basis, and the fan term may be chosen instead", which is being used as the argument for making a "generic" name for moves that have had multiple names at one point or another (Link's Bow, the Poltergust, Ganondorf's Final Smash, etc.), which I think is a completely invalid argument, primarily because a nickname such as "Bow", "Poltergust", or "Ganon" is not a different enough name from the actual canon name of the attack for it to fit under here. If this were the case, we'd have Knee Smash simply under the name "The Knee" instead of its current name, or even "Falcon" in place of "Captain Falcon". Shortened names aren't outright different names, since they still very clearly resemble the base name; the best example for how this rule should, theoretically, be applied already exists (and is provided by SW:OFFICIAL already), as we have a page describing teching that's actually called "tech", instead of the canon name of (as of Ultimate) "fall break". We also already use official names for fighters, other characters, and stages, so I am not sure why special moves are an exception. Additionally, to bring up a point I made on the talk page, the Smash community has gotten extremely huge because of Ultimate, and will continue to get larger with DLC, and as such, most people will be familiar with the names of the moves as they are in the game. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that move pages should be moved to a more up-to-date name should they be changed in any way from game to game. This is not to say that old names should be ignored, since they absolutely should be mentioned on the pages themselves and have redirects. However, staying up to date on all the information regarding the series should be the job of an encyclopedia-based website, no?

Secondly, in regards to naming the pages, there are quite a few pages that have taken to having slashes in the in-game displayed names. This has been discussed before, but it should also be discussed here. Many of these moves simply have upgraded forms instead of outright being different moves, which is where the confusion is lying; this has been, and currently is, an issue, as Omnislash got moved to "Omnislash / Omnislash Ver. 5" without consensus, in spite of it being made abundantly clear that the latter was merely an aesthetic difference, with not even the percentages changing (and, as such, it was moved back shortly after). Therefore, I am proposing that moves that, in Ultimate's Move List, have a slash in the title use their base name in the page covering the move, with the following (current) exceptions:


• Shin Shoryuken / Shinku Hadoken: These, flat out, are different moves. One is a projectile, and one is a trapping uppercut, and, at the time, was also unique for a Final Smash for changing between two different moves.
• Shippu Jinraikyaku / Shinryuken: Similar to the above exception, these two are also different moves, with one being a spinning uppercut, and the other being a trapping series of kicks.
• Burning Knuckle / Crack Shoot: These moves are not only different moves, but are also performed with different inputs altogether.
• Mine / Craft / Create Block: These moves act on their own in terms of functionality, serving different purposes in terms of gameplay.
• Additionally, while I am not convinced of it myself, I can see a case being made for Grappling Hook / Wings of Rebellion, Rebel's Guard / Tetrakarn / Makarakarn, and ARMS Jump / ARM Hook.

I believe this will make things much easier for processing (very long page names are a pain to type out and take up a lot of text space), and for information covering (since we can then cover the different "phases" of a move separately).

Thank you. Aidan, the Rurouni 12:12, January 12, 2021 (EST)

Support

Updated page names

1. I support all of the updated page names with the slashes, except that I'm iffy on the Omnislash one. I started out fully supporting it but considering it was just "Omnislash" in Smash 4 I'm more neutral now. Aykrivwassup (talk) 21:25, January 12, 2021 (EST)

Oppose

No slashes

1. I understand the idea behind no slashed for most multi-name special moves, but doesn't that directly go against the whole "generic name" point made in this very thread? Additionally, there is no fine line for what is and isn't notable enough to not have slashes besides Cloud's FS being a purely aesthetic change. Limit charge and finishing touch are clearly different. Banjo's neutral special is a gray area with no good solution, because while both moves involve Kazooie spitting eggs, they have completely different animations and functions. I don't play enough Bayonetta to know how different her side specials are mechanically, I believe that they are completely different attacks in her own games. However, I would also oppose splitting all multi-name moves outside of Palutena's down special (since those used to be different inputs), because there would be very little information split on multiple pages. Steve's neutral specials are all very different mechanically, but they all synergies with each other by involving the materials mined. Sephiroth's up specials have different games of origin, but the moves themselves boil down to one being stronger, so it would be pointless to split, but would basically ignore an equal part of the move despite their similarities. Min Min's more prominent up special is her aerial version, but her grounded version is listed first, so why would the move barely anyone uses get priority? In most cases, multi-name move variants are equally prominent in comparison to each other. I can maybe see a case of ignoring slashes for Hero's specials, Gun/Gun Special, and Sephiroth's neutral special, but that's only 5 exceptions against at least 12 others, and in that case you might as well just put slashes for all of them. 72.219.72.215 19:36, January 13, 2021 (EST)

Neutral

Updated page names

1. I have nowhere else to put my specific stance, so I'm putting it here. I am in favor of keeping moves with the same input that activate in different contexts together in the same article. For example, I think the mine/craft/block name is fine to keep with the slashes, as all of them do different things depending on the context. As long as each of them are properly explained, it should be fine. For purely aesthetic changes, like with omnislash, only the original and/or most widely used name should be the title. Omnislash Ver. 5 should just be a dedicated section in the article, as nothing but the visuals change. For the specific case of burning knuckle/crack shoot, I think those should be split into different articles. Since both technically use different inputs, I think splitting them up would make both simpler and less confusing.The Other Jared (talk) 18:46, January 12, 2021 (EST)

Comments

If we don't end up keeping any of the page titles with slashes, my thought is that we should split them all up. For example, for Joker's down-B there would be 2-3 separate pages - one for Rebel's Guard, and either one for Tetrakarn and one for Makarakarn or a single page for both of the latter moves (though I suppose that would require a slash as well). Aykrivwassup (talk) 21:29, January 12, 2021 (EST)