Talk:RetroSSBBRank

On similar grounds of Talk:Top 100 Smash Bros. Players of All Time, this page is based just one reddit user's opinion without any community backing.

Delete Omegα Toαd, the Toαd Wαrrior. (BUP) 09:48, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Keep: Similar reasons to why the Top 100 Smash Bros. Players of All Time page should be kept, it's not like we have a glut of Brawl PR's from this era. PR's in general can be subjective no matter how many people are working on them, if you remove one you might as well remove all of them. JFMV763 (talk) 15:49, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Keep discussion to here<note, this formerly linked to the now deleted Talk:Top 100 Smash Players of All Time> instead of splitting it between the two pages. Also the amount of Brawl rankings out there is completely irrelevant, scarcity doesn't give this ranking any more credibility than any other random person making their own ranking. Omega Tyrant 19:29, February 16, 2021 (EST)

Keep. https://twitter.com/ADHD_93/status/1362987839538003970 I asked ADHD and he immediately verified it. This should curb any issues of notability for the ranking.Barnard's Loop (talk) 23:52, February 19, 2021 (EST)

Further confirmation from a DM discussion with Gardex, a member of the Brawl Bois. [1]. Barnard's Loop (talk) 16:27, February 20, 2021 (EST)

Keep. Even though orange_ssbu doesn't have much credibility, with ADHD, Poyo, and Luigisama all verifying the legitimacy of the rankings, I feel like this can stay. CookiesCreme 23:59, February 19, 2021 (EST)

Keep Notability seems to be established. Wiifitkid (talk) 09:22, February 20, 2021 (EST)

→ moved from Talk:Top 100 Smash Players of All Time

Keep. Or, at least keep Retro SSBBRank. It is, to my understanding, a well-researched project that has variably had some segments published on non-reddit websites and is very detailed in its descriptions. Brawl discussions I've had with other people who've dug into the scene back the veracity of RetroSSBBRank. A traditional non-panel methodology that is largely non-subjective would be very difficult due to the volume of lost Brawl-era data, and I don't think burying the ranking helps preserving the scene or encouraging independent work that's defined the Smash scene's data collection for the past 5 years. It additionally considers non-USA scenes in its rankings, something the only official Brawl ranking did not do in 2014, which led to a cascading effect on following rankings & scene organizer perceptions that weren't adequately addressed until 2017. I understand that standards must be kept, but it's clear to me that the standards applied here were more than an average opinionated forum post. I can't speak to the veracity or quality of the Top 100 list (I'm only on this page since discussion on orange ssbu's stuff is here), but I would implore the site's editors to keep the Brawl ranking in the event this particular page is deleted, as it is a well-researched piece that likely took proper time & research to make. Barnard's Loop (talk) 15:06, February 17, 2021 (EST)

Effort and research doesn't help with the issue that it's still ultimately just one guy's opinion, and it's not like other personal rankings and the like out there didn't have people put any effort and research into them too. And it's not the wiki's place to be an encouragement for people to do their own independent work, we're just covering what's deemed relevant and sufficiently noteworthy to Smash in an encyclopedic-style, not to exist as an arbiter of validation. However, if evidence can be provided that the current Brawl community backs RetroSSBBRank, that can suffice for notability despite the unorthodox creation behind it. Omega Tyrant 15:57, February 17, 2021 (EST)

I'm not sure how to exactly demonstrate Brawl community backing outside of my personal connections who've studied Brawl agreeing with it. The "current Brawl community" is essentially just the Ultimate community since Brawl has been abandoned outside of a few scattered discords to my knowledge. The most work I could personally do to back it with sources would take the kind of time & research designed to create it, and I'm not sure who to reference outside of 16bit and maybe Zan. The ranking itself seems to be backed at least by ADHD and Poyo, since the latter contributed with fact checks and the former gave responses and interviews. Mew2King was aware of it as well and did not seem to be critical. Former PG Staff Tetra, a major figure in Japan translations for Smash 4 who knew a ton about the scene, also regularly responded. Barnard's Loop (talk) 16:39, February 18, 2021 (EST)

Can you get in contact with the Brawl Bois (i.e. the guys behind the 2018-19 SSBBRank) and see if they approve of RetroSSBBRank? If so, that would be enough for RetroSSBBRank to stay. Omega Tyrant 19:47, February 19, 2021 (EST)

I have messaged Gardex. I'll report back with any response. Barnard's Loop (talk) 21:07, February 19, 2021 (EST)

Updates and sources are posted to the Retro SSBBRank talk page. Gardex, ADHD, Poyo, Luigisama, and seemingly everybody involved in Brawl sanctioned orange's project, considers the data to be good, contributed some to the project, and responded promptly to confirm. This should close the matter entirely. Barnard's Loop (talk) 16:29, February 20, 2021 (EST)

Thank you, that will suffice. Omega Tyrant 17:39, February 20, 2021 (EST)

Discontinuation

It has come to my attention that I never actually explained why this ranking was discontinued, so I'll do it right now.

Despite the discussion that took place above, the consensus on the wiki was that, despite input from other players familiar with Brawl, the rankings were still not all that accurate, especially after we performed our Major reclassification for Brawl which made this list even less accurate. The fact that orange_ssbu had virtually no known experience in creating such a ranking before, and has done nothing similar since then (aside from an even more questioned top 100 Smashers of all time list, which was promptly removed from the wiki), also further puts the rankings' validity into question, as it seemed like it was a project from a dedicated fan meant to emulate RetroSSBMRank that just so happened to receive some input from known players, rather than an actual attempt from an experienced user to creating a ranking. I am not trying to discredit orange_ssbu's efforts here, but it's clear that there are still several issues with the rankings; namely:

• A lack of Japanese players in the first two years, despite early results from players such as RAIN and Souther that should have placed them somewhere on the list. While such a ranking that includes Japanese players may be impossible due to how separate the two were in early-Brawl, both players did not even receive an honorable mention. This also further emphasizes how difficult a retro ranking for Brawl would be, and how important it is for a retro ranking to be worked on by someone actually experienced/has a history with Brawl.
• Tyrant dropping significantly to 17th on the 2010 list, despite still placing 2nd at a supermajor (MLG Dallas 2010) and 3rd at a major (MLG Orlando 2010). Sure the rest of his season wasn't great, but his lowest was still 10th at MLG DC 2010, and none of that should have warranted a 12-spot drop from the previous list, or at least being ranked below players like NickRiddle, whose placements were overall worse than Tyrant's.
• 9B and Vinnie's weirdly low placements on the 2012 list. The blurb on 9B was also overly negative and ignored how, despite having a weaker season, 9B still placed in the top 2 at 6/8 recorded events that year (and most of those top 2s were at pretty stacked Sumabato events), and the sole placement outside the top 8 was at a single-elimination bracket. Likewise, Vinnie placed 2nd at one of the largest events that year, Sun Rise Tournament, and outside an uncharacteristic 49th at Apex 2012 and a 9th at L.I.R.R. 2, he placed top 8 at every event he attended that year, including notable performances like winning Collision IV and placing 2nd at SumabatoX 15. Looking at the rest of the top 10, Mikeneko has less results overall, with 2/5 of them being outside the top 8; ZeRo only had two great events (at the end of the year) and most of his wins were at smaller Chilean events; heck Mew2King didn't even win a single recorded event and only had one major top 8 (a 7th at Sun Rise Tournament). Yet, all three were ranked above 9B and Vinnie.
• While there have been several Brawl veterans and players who have supported these rankings, several have also came out against it, such as Omega Tyrant, who was a Brawl vet, and ninja1167, who has worked on several of the most recent SSBBRanks. In addition, while there were some players that showed support, at the end of the day it was still only several players, some of which voiced their support when asked. As such, there is a lack of consensus as to whether the entire Brawl community itself accepts this (in a similar vein to the recent SSBBRanks), or whether they mostly see it as fun trivia.
• orange_ssbu was also allegedly the user who created the page on the wiki in the first place, under the username Soy, which already creates a conflict of interest.

Due to the reasons above, SmashWiki editors have agreed to discontinue these rankings on the wiki, instead leaving them as an archive. As such, they are not used in any capacity on the wiki, including on ranking sections and the most historically significant player section. CookiesCreme 23:02, April 17, 2025 (EDT)