Talk:Character matchup (SSBB)

This doesn't seem like the official match-up list. Also, the chart isn't very accurate, as Mr. Game & Watch does not hold a 50:50 match-up with Meta Knight. I've seen his match-up discussion threads (though unofficial, they are made by expert Meta Knight/Mr. Game & Watch players), and it says that the match-up is 40:60, Meta Knight with the advantage [1][2] (scroll down a bit). Could we see the link to where you found this? -Masq (t/c/e) 02:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I concur, but sadly, I lack the ability to change anything. Even if I could, I wouldn't know what to insert. Blue Ninjakoopa 02:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we could delete the image and insert a template? If we could, I'd update it with the match-up lists on Smash Boards happily. Why can't you change anything...? -Masq (t/c/e) 02:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I have a PoS laptop >.> But your idea sounds good. Are you still going to have the match up chart? Blue Ninjakoopa 03:12, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but in a template, so we can change it as the metagame and matchups do. Now, the big hole in this plan as that we have no template...

Wasn't there a project a long time ago to make matchup pages for every character? If we can't find a template, then maybe we could just make a page showing character's matchups, and writing information about them. It would give people a lot more information, as the pages would be more in-depth, rather then just showing a chart. -Masq (t/c/e) 03:22, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Category

Could someone please categorize this page, I can't think of a category for it.--MysteryHeff ^TALK 08:46, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

New Matchup Chart

I have uploaded a current matchup chart, but it will change as the character boards discuss the remaining matchups, so it will have to be updated when the matchup threads are. However, there is already somebody doing this, and a the new picture will just have to be updated, and the old one deleted. You can find the thread here: [3] -Masq (t/c/e) 20:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

While images are fine, I think I may have a way to make it easier to update matchup charts. While you were putting up the new image, I was adding templates that make a matchup chart as easy as a table:

	A	B	C
A		Template:MatchupEasy	Template:MatchupSemiEasy
B	Template:MatchupHard		Template:MatchupNeutral
C	Template:MatchupSemiHard	Template:MatchupNeutral

Tables are a bit faster (and at times easier) to update, since anyone can do it (not just the person who made the image). We'll have to add the small-character-head images, but that shouldn't be too much of an issue. What do you think? Toomai Glittershine eXemplary Logic 20:11, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

A table sounds fine, but I don't really like the idae of using the SSBB symbols for them, as there are only five, and there are many more ratios then just those. I'd prefer numbers to images. -Masq (t/c/e) 20:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'll start working on a matchup table using that chart you just uploaded as a base. It may take a while, but it should be worth it. Toomai Glittershine The Table Designer 21:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Table-based chart ready for transferral

I have completed the table-based matchup chart. It can be seen in its holding house here. (Yes, I spelled the page wrong. :P I guess I was anxious to get started.) Please comment on it. I will place it on this page in a few days is there are no comments. Toomai Glittershine The Stats Guy 02:14, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Whoops, I forgot to uncheck the Minor Edit box. People won't notice this if it's a minor edit.

Okay then, since no one's commented, I've put in the table-based chart as promised. Toomai Glittershine eXemplary Logic 18:54, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

It looks good, but is there anyway to put the character's heads in? It would be much easier to identify the characters on the sides, as some people may not get which character it is based on two letters. -Masq (t/c/e) 15:54, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't have access to the character head symbols (unless they're hidden in this wiki somewhere), but I can add in the icons. They'd have to be pretty small, though: File:Icon-metaknight.gifFile:Icon-snake.gifFile:Icon-falco.gif Is that good enough? Toomai Glittershine eXemplary Logic 18:12, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

They're not here already, but those icons are hard to see when they're so small. Check around Smashboards, though; I'm pretty sure they're out there. Miles (talk) 21:12, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Character head icons uploaded and used. Looks a lot better now. Toomai Glittershine The Table Designer 22:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Latest Match-up Chart

I'll be the first to offer up my opinion and say: MY EYES. I'm not exaggerating when I say the colors are painful to look at. Can the colors be toned down? Also, the page stretch is pretty bad, even with my widescreen set-up. It's bound to be even worse on smaller/narrower screens. Can it be changed again? Simpler = better! - (U • T • C ) 09:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I've faded the row colours, that should look less cringe-worthy. But are you suggesting that using a single image instead of a dynamic table takes up less space on a page? The original matchup image is about the same size as the table, and the more recent one is a decent amount bigger. So to me, horizontal stretch is inevitable for this page. Toomai Glittershine The Stats Guy 12:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, I think the rows need to be a little bit bolder, or just pure black as opposed to the Cyan and Black. But, as much as I like the current one, this one does look a bit better and easier to look at. --~The Blue Blur~^{New main in training!} 13:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

As Masq stated, though, we can't only use symbols for matchups. There are too many ratios now to use anything other than numbers, and numbers are a lot larder to shrink than icons. That's why I used images with numbers in them: not only do images make it easier to add colour, but images can (and do) have a caption that appears on rollover in case you can't read it. (And the rows aren't cyan and black, they're faded versions of the character's primary colour.) Toomai Glittershine The Table Designer 14:58, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Still harsh on the eyes. Why not a simple alternation of grey and white columns/rows? - (U • T • C ) 22:15, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

If it's good enough for iTunes... Miles (talk) 22:24, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Some matchups reasons

• Sheik-Ganondorf is 95-5 for Sheik because:Any percent-stock lead means for Sheik use Chain Jacket Glitch to get completely safe from Ganondorf.
• Ganondorf would win Mr. Game & Watch is Ganondorf would have a safe approach on Mr Game & Watch.
• Many matchups given in Ganondorf boards in Smash World Forums are exagerated. And a Ganondorf has beaten Ice Climbers in a high level tournament by 2-0.
• Wolf's terrible matchup against King Dedede is probably the only reason why he is not higher. Firewario (talk) 08:56, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Why???

Some of the matchups on the chart make no sense in that for some it's A vs B is 50-50 even and the "Mirror" B vs A is 45-55. Why is this??? Atomix26 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The mirror numbers are actually based on two seperate think tanks, which I guess should be explained in the article. Take the MK vs. Wario matchup for example. The Wario people at SmashBoards agree amongst themselves that Wario has an even 50:50 matchup with MK, so Wario has a 50 in his MK column. However, the MK mainers think that MK has a slight 55:45 advantage, giving MK a 55 in his Wario column. Toomai Glittershine The Table Designer 20:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Not good. We need to keep this consistent. Regardless of what character is being played by whom, the theoretical match-ups remain the same. If the Meta-Knight people think one thing and the Wario people think another, that's nice, but the match-up chart is supposed to be purely a theoretical mathematical representation of the win-loss distribution of each match up. There can't be unequal mirrors; go with 47.5-52.5 if you must, but don't leave it like this. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 14:25, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

"The match-up chart is supposed to be purely a theoretical mathematical representation of the win-loss distribution of each match up."

That's the best-case scenario, yes, and I would think that it would naturally come to that once the metagame is almost completely stable. However, I think it is unfeasible to forcibly conform it right now, mostly because some matchups have no numerical rating yet. Also, I would argue that the difference between the thoughts of both sides of a matchup is so small (5 points, usually) that it doesn't really matter. Toomai Glittershine The Stats Guy 14:47, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Please remove the 'official' tag

This chart is the farthest thing possible from 'official', and labelling it as such is extremely misleading.

To be honest this shouldn't even exist yet. Maybe another 6 months and things will look accurate. Uploading a chart that is not complete while full of disagreements between boards on ratios is a very bad thing to do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.45.126.206 (talk • contribs) 14:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Why should this chart not exist yet? Is it a bad thing that it does? Besides, the chart is only meant to represent what the character boards believe the match-up ratio to be. They are not set in stone. However I do agree that the official part should be removed. Y462 (T • C • E ) 23:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

King Dedede's Chain Grabs

Please, someone make the DK/DDD, Samus/DDD, Mario/DDD, Luigi/DDD and Bowser/DDD matchups divided with one with the infinite and other without the infinite. Firewario (talk) 11:40, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

I assmue "the" infinite is powerful enough to alter the matchups significantly, correct? Toomai Glittershine The Table Designer 14:07, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

It's devastating. For example the King Dedede/Donkey Kong matchup is considered 60/40 in King Dedede's favour (still very winnable) if the walking chain grab and infinite chain grab are banned. With the chain grabs it's like 90/10 or even worse. Firewario (talk) 17:37, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Minor side note: please make a new section when you want to raise a new issue, and indent your responses to other users' comments by placing one more : before your comment than they placed before theirs. Thanks, PenguinofDeath 21:28, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

I'd recommend a separate, detached row under the main table. Or else put it only on the King Dedede (SSBB) page. Also, each character's matchup row should go on their SSBB page. Miles (talk) 21:44, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

No matchup charts for 64 and Melee? Yagomus (talk) 20:39, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

No. There's an outdated Melee one here, and I don't think people really ever analyzed the 64 matchups. I guess this page is slightly mistitled in that way (having only a a Brawl chart), but realistically most of the Smash Bros. population plays mostly Brawl anyway. Toomai Glittershine eXemplary Logic 20:48, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

SSB and melee matchups

Can someone please put the SSB and melee matchup charts up? I think someone uploaded the SSB one and i'll try to put it up. As for the Melee one, can someone try to find it, upload it, and place it? That would help a lot. 98.117.158.220 05:04, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

Article splitting

I think that we should keep this page as a general explanation of what matchups are, but have the matchups for each game on seperate pages (such as Character matchups (SSB), Character matchups (SSBM), and Character matchups (SSBB)). For one thing, if all the matchups were on one page, it'd be ginormous. Toomai Glittershine The Stats Guy 18:22, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

That incentive is legitimate enough for my support. Are you going to separate the articles by yourself or would you like me to? Blue Ninjakoopa 18:48, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Done --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 19:13, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

NO. You might as well seperate the tier list into three seperate articles. Can you please undo this? 98.117.158.220 01:24, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

Tier list might actually work well split; you'd have enough room to put all the historical data for each game's development (like making note of the Ice Climber's shot upwards in SSBM when wobbling appeared). But anyway, do you have a particular reason why you really don't like this split? Toomai Glittershine The Stats Guy 02:08, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

Well, it was fine as one article. I see no point in the split. It the article wouldn't be that long if all three matchup charts were one. 98.117.158.220 02:19, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

I suggested a split because of a few things. Someone elsewhere was wondering about the SSB64 matchups and where to put them. Since the SSBM matchups already had their own article (in a sense), I thought that a split would be the best thing - and in any case, the page had to be renamed at the least ("character matchups" implies either everything at once, or a short explanation followed by links to the specifics, which is more modular and controllable). Toomai Glittershine The Table Designer 03:32, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

Then why not put them all in one article? If that same person was looking for the SSB64 matchups, all they would need to do is type in "matchup", leading them to a page with all three matchup charts. There, it would be easy to find the chart that they want. 98.117.158.220 04:57, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

whoa

Why so many "undocumented" matchups this time around? Particularly Ike and Fox. I mean, I might be forgetful, but I'm fairly certain Ike and Fox both had more than 10 determined matchups. --HavocReaper'48 20:56, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

I take the data for this chart fom a SmashBoards thread, and the guy who does it there blanks matchups discussed in threads that are over a year old. I think it's an good idea, since a year-old matchup ratio is probably no longer accurate. Toomai Glittershine The Table Designer 21:03, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism?

Have you noticed that someone has changed some characters' heads? Link's head is Ness's and Pokémon Trainer's head is R.O.B's and something like that. Is it vandalism? Juusto423 (talk) 15:55, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Is that a subtle stab at the current tier list? The table is ordered by the tier list and cannot be edited by IPs, and if there was any vandalism I'd have fixed it already. Toomai Glittershine eXemplary Logic 16:06, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

A couple of things i noticed that i dont entirely understand

• ok why is it that on some characters its undocumented yet when you look at others its got the match up for them when its the exact same match up like if you look at sonics row you see his chances of beating sheik are 40:60 yet if you look at sheiks you would think it would say 60:40 but its undocumented another example is dk and pkmn trainer
• 2 how come for some of the match ups its different even though they are the same thing, such as when you look at zss on meta knight its 60:40 but when you look at meta knight on zss's row its 45:55