Talk:Clone

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Pseudo-Clones?

Are Pseudo-Clones really "necessary" to included? If Wolf, Lucas, Luigi (Ultimate) and Dr.Mario (Ultimate) are not technically "clones", why list them as such? I tried reading what was stated before to properly understand, but I could not find a "clear" answer. If someone could give me a "nutshell" explanation for including Pseudo-Clones, it would be much appreciated. Wolff (talk) 00:54, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

Yes they are actually, Wolf, Lucas, Luigi, and arguably Ganondorf now (which is still being debated) are far more distinct from their base characters than the likes of Falco, Young Link, Ken, Roy, Toon Link, and Isabelle. Dr. Mario isn’t a psudeo-clone; quite the contrary actually. He’s a full clone. Lou Cena (talk) 02:25, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

That is not actually answering my question. My question is about using the term "Pseudo-Clone" at all. Why state a character to be a clone if they aren't really a clone (in that installment)? Example: If Lucas is not a clone of Ness, why state that he is? Example 2: Luigi was a clone in 64, and a semi in all others but Ultimate. If he is a "psudeo" in Ultimate, then why list him at all for Ultimate? Psudeo is another word for fake. What purpose is there to include a section for "fake-clones"? If the case for Psudeos is that they "were based on another character" or "were a clone before", then it still does not make sense (to me) why Psudeo should be included. Wolff (talk) 16:19, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

The wiki is there to document the concepts related to Smash, not to dictates them. The smash community uses the idea of "pseudo-clone" since Wolf, hence the need to explain this concept here. Getting rid of it would be disinformation. YoshiRyu (talk) 18:29, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

You may not remember, but ever since Brawl came out there has always been huge debate over how to define Wolf. He was clearly not a full clone, and he was too different to be a semi-clone, but he was also too similar to not be any sort of clone at all. The pseudo-clone classification was made to give Wolf a box to sit in, and happens to be useful for other characters as well. Toomai Glittershine The Indescribable 18:36, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

I was aware of that debate. I just was not sure if it was really necessary. I guess it is then by that logic. Thank you! Wolff (talk) 18:49, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

Enough is enough We have been arguing about how to treat the clones since the damn game released months ago. We'll go with Toomai's research and leave it at that. I don't want to see any more discussion about clones, unless it's contesting specific parts of his research specifically (as in X move is not a clone of Y move). SerpentKing 18:52, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

I would like to contest this. We already have official word from Nintendo AND datamined information (multiple sources in fact) that directly contradict Toonmai's research. He even admitted that what the developers consider clones changes between games (see Falco vs Daisy for example). None of the full clones in Ultimate (what the team call echoes) significantly differ in the following aspects.

Jump Height Movement Speed (especially aerial movement speed) Falling Speed Traction Proportions such as height and boneset. Basic attack and non attack animations (echoes may have a few exceptions to this) General damage output and knockback power Weight Grab and throw power (even Ken's Hell Wheel has the same power as Ryu's move) Basic parameters and coding in general (such as AI) are over 90% identical to the base character. Bolded are things that are outright identical.

These things all change for non-echoes and clones of the past. Isabelle for example has two special moves that are completely different in operation and serve completely different purposes, and Dr Mario has drastically altered physical attributes (some stuff like jump height were even tweaked by hand this time). Ken absolutely falls under a full clone because the vast majority of his tools are outright identical or extremely similar to Ryu's even in damage and knockback and the changes he has are mostly for flavor (matching SF2 Turbo) and don't really affect how he plays. Dr Mario's changes affect how he plays in a much bigger way. His position in tier lists is indicative of this. --5.81.71.60 18:14, April 3, 2019 (EDT)

Just to say, the above had been banned to be a MemoryMan sock. SugarCookie 420 20:46, April 3, 2019 (EDT)

I'm worried about him now. Please don’t take this as an attack or anything, but as I stated in my previous message, I'm concerned about someone else’s mental state, et cetera, et cetera, and I certainly don’t want to cast aspersions anybody’s way. The point is, I feel these discussions are becoming a bad case of déjà vu, and as much as I want to stop this, the truth is… I can’t (at least, not at this moment).

Post-Scriptum: Though this might sound presumptuous, I also feel that the debate on what makes a clone has gone on a bit too long, and I wish not to comment on the matter. Thanks for reading. 24.6.47.241 19:12, April 4, 2019 (EDT)

Ganondorf’s position

Ganondorf’s moves are enough to qualify him as a psudeo-clone. All of his ground attacks are different, and even if he shares the same aerials, no other clone archetype has such polarizing differences on moves with the same animations. He should definitely be moved to the psudeo-clone category, though I’m curious about your thoughts on this. If arguements stating that he’s a psudeo-clone are convincing enough, he will be moved, and if arguements stating that he’s a semi-clone still are convincing enough, he will stay.Lou Cena (talk) 02:21, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

Young Link’s position

Young Link’s animations are enough to qualify him as a semi-clone. He holds his sword in his other hand, which while it has been arued to be easy because he mirrors Link’s animations, the mirroring not exact, and would have taken extra work. If arguements stating that he’s a semi-clone are convincing enough, he will be moved, and if arguements stating that he’s a full clone still are convincing enough, he will stay. Lou Cena (talk) 02:21, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

Problem with YL and TL's current write-up is that they ignore most of adult/BotW Link's changes. I'd say they both count as Semis given that BotW Link has new animations for almost every attack, both the kids are shorter and lighter with different fall speeds, he has remote bombs and recoverable arrows and the whole grab thing going on. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 20:18, April 3, 2019 (EDT)

Pichu’s position

While I personally don’t think Pichu qualifies as a Semi-clone, this placement should be a bit more controversial than Dr. Mario’s. Give out your best arguements, and if they’re convincing enough, Pichu will be listed as a semi-clone. Lou Cena (talk) 02:21, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

SSB4 Luigi’s position

Luigi has been heavily debated to be on Lucas’s level of a clone before we normalized the term ”psudeo-clone”, so looking back on whether he was in the past should be worth it. If arguements stating that he’s a psudeo-clone are convincing enough, he will be moved, and if arguements stating that he’s a semi-clone still are convincing enough, he will stay. Lou Cena (talk) 02:21, April 1, 2019 (EDT)