User talk:Omega Tyrant/Clone charts

My main gripe with this is your definition at the top of "cloned move" and "semi-cloned move". You say that the main differences between a clone move is the hitbox data, while the main differences between a semi-cloned move is the "function" - which you proceed to define as hitbox data. You probably didn't intend this but you basically contradicted yourself with your terminology.

My secondary gripe is how you interpret the function/operation of special moves. I really don't see how you can consider PK Flash and PK Freeze non-cloned when you consider Falcon Punch and Warlock Punch to be semi-cloned (in Brawl), as they have the same differences: different animation/graphics, different damage/knockback/hitbox effect, identical operation.

Speaking of "operation", I think it's the primary way that most players (i.e. those who aren't interested in the technical sutff) perceive special moves to be clones of each other. If the controls and results of a special move are the same as another they're likely to start thinking "A is like B but with X difference", which is indication of at least semi-clone standing in their mind. Combined with the fact that most such players mentally differentiate characters by their most outstanding/memorable traits (i.e. their special moves), this results in pairs like Fox/Wolf being called semiclones or clones by the general public, as they aren't interested enough in the finer details to understand the full differences of the special moves, and they probably don't care about the individuality of regular attacks. It's like indivisible atoms, or centrifugal force - it's not technically correct, but it's good enough for most people, and as such it's the most common point of view. Toomai Glittershine The Bold 23:56, 22 September 2011 (EDT)

For point A, I probably could have worded that better. By hitbox data, I'm primarily referring to knockback and minor angle alterations. I'll reword accordingly.

For point B, PK Freeze freezes opponents, while PK Flash simply hits them upwards. Such a function difference doesn't exist between Falcon/Warlock Punch. Plus with Freeze, how much control you have over it is drastically more than with PK Flash. With Falcon/Warlock Punch, there is no such control difference between the two. However, I'll admit this is one of the "gray area moves", and I felt PK Freeze has enough to be considered a non cloned move.

For point C, I recognise that, and it's part of why this page was created, to inform those who otherwise don't look beyond simple operation. As you could agree, simply having the same operation shouldn't be enough to call something a cloned move, as otherwise, nearly every up special would be a cloned move under that judgment, as well as neutral special projectiles. Omega Tyrant 00:36, 23 September 2011 (EDT)

Just a quick thing, I think Fire Fox/Wolf deserves one X. In terms of an offensive move, they're very different, but in terms of a recovery move, they're very similar. Otherwise (par Reflector), Fox & Wolf aren't clones in any way. That is all. ToastUltimatum Complaints Box 13:48, 23 September 2011 (EDT)

Simply operating similarly as a recovery isn't enough. Otherwise, we would be calling many recovery moves clone moves of each other. And you can't expect recovery moves to be that different in operation. Also, the offensive mechanics still apply to their recovery mechanics.

For Reflector, they both function by creating a fast reflector shield around them that semi-spikes opponents, and give invincibility frames. It could be argued they're semi-cloned moves however. Omega Tyrant

Yeah, they did all they could to make Reflector different. I use it surprisingly often for its counter aspect. But as you gave it an XX, I was just agreeing with you. ToastUltimatum Complaints Box 14:15, 23 September 2011 (EDT)

I could give it a X on the basis that its appearance is different, and its function isn't identical. Also, I use it for a countering often in a fight with Wolf xD. It's a great move to get you out of close combat and to prevent juggles. Omega Tyrant 14:17, 23 September 2011 (EDT)

Reflector should be a single X, as it has a completely different animation and (to my knowledge) knockback angle. Note that Wolf's reflector has actually been claimed as a counter for its function, whereas Fox's does not. Also, I'm not sure why you included Marth and Ike here, since I've never heard them called clones... Mr. Anon (talk) 20:39, 23 September 2011 (EDT)

I'll change it accordingly then.

For Marth and Ike, look at past revisions of the clone page, and old talk page discussion. There were seriously people who saw them as some sort of clones. Omega Tyrant 22:05, 23 September 2011 (EDT)

I'll discuss this more later after I've gone in to training mode for a refresher, but I don't see how you can call Ganondorf a clone in brawl when they have LESS similiarities, according to your chart, than Mario and Luigi. Also, having different damage or knockback does NOT mean they're not "cloned" moves if they share the exact same (or nearly the same) hitboxes and animations. I'm almost certain that Toon Link and Link share at least 16 of their 22 moves (17/23 if you count z-air)- 71.87.116.224 02:39, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

I would also like to know why Lucas and Ness are listed together when "Lucas's standard attacks are unique with the exception of his forward smash and up aerial". Being "similar in mechanics" means nothing. Pretty much every Forward Smash knocks characters the same general direction, and most moves of a given type (back aerial, dash attack, etc) are going to be "similar in mechanics" no matter who uses them - 71.87.116.224 02:47, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

" but I don't see how you can call Ganondorf a clone in brawl when they have LESS similiarities, according to your chart, than Mario and Luigi."

Where did I call Brawl Ganondorf a clone? I'm in full agreement with the clone page that he's a semi-clone, just like Mario and Luigi.

"Also, having different damage or knockback does NOT mean they're not "cloned" moves if they share the exact same (or nearly the same) hitboxes and animations."

Function - Simply, what the move actually does. Hitbox properties and placement (such as knockback angle, if the move is a single hit or multi-hitting, damage effects such as fire added) largely determines this.

If a move has a different function, it is most certainly a major change, as the move must be used differently and has different applications (which then goes and leads to the character playing differently, and part of being a clone is playing identically to the character they were cloned from). Calling a move a "cloned move" just because of its animation, glances over the actual use of the move and its impact on the character. There are only so many ways you can throw a punch or swing a sword; how the move actually works is very important.

"I'm almost certain that Toon Link and Link share at least 16 of their 22 moves (17/23 if you count z-air)"

Read the chart, you are wrong. Toon Link has 7 moves that can be considered cloned moves, 8 moves that fit the bill of a semi-cloned move, and the rest certainly having enough difference to not be considered a cloned move. Toon Link also has radically different physics from Link, another important part of cloneship you're glancing over. Toon Link is definitely a bonafide semi-clone, but he has too many differences to play identically to Link, and calling him a complete clone is an exaggeration and misrepresentation of his character.

Regarding zair, I pretty much consider it a "bonus move". There are only four characters in the game with one (and for Lucas it doesn't even have any hitboxes), and they're all identical in animation and function (only difference is what tether is used and the hitboxes having slightly varying reach/damage/knockback). Even if you do count it as a cloned move, it doesn't push Toon Link from semi-clone to clone.

"I would also like to know why Lucas and Ness are listed together when "Lucas's standard attacks are unique with the exception of his forward smash and up aerial"."

"Ness/Lucas just have enough where it's not inappropriate to consider them semi-clones. However, if they didn't have near identical physics, they would not have enough shared to be appropriately called semi-clones."

Don't ignore the character's physics. A character's physics is a huge part of how they play. Ness' and Lucas' physics are pretty much identical, right down to them both suffering from 10 extra frames of lag out of grab releases that no other character suffers from (and as result hurts both of them hugely in competitive play). If their physics were like how Fox's are to Wolf's, then yeah calling them semi-cloned would be exaggerated. But with the identical physics, combined with the small amount of cloning in their moves, it's not inappropriate to call them semi-clones (albeit they're the least cloned of Brawl's definite semi-clones.

"Being "similar in mechanics" means nothing."

Read what I said previously about function.

"Pretty much every Forward Smash knocks characters the same general direction"

How many forward smashes involve swinging a piece of wood sideways that reflect projectiles?

"and most moves of a given type (back aerial, dash attack, etc) are going to be "similar in mechanics" no matter who uses them"

This is just a gross generalisation. For example, go compare the dash attacks of all the Mario characters; they all have different functioning. And if you want to go down this route, many attacks are "similar in animation" then. Hopefully you get the point and don't throw out such a large net that makes the concept of cloning lose its meaning.

Also, you seem to be ignoring the concept of "semi-clone", and seeing it as only "clone" and "not cloned". Don't do this. Omega Tyrant 03:26, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

You seem far too lenient in what you consider a "semi-clone". Kirby and Jigglypuff are not semi-clones. Mario and Luigi are no longer semi-clones. Wolf and Fox are not semi-clones. Sharing a handful of moves does not a semi-clone make. In melee, Roy and Marth more or less shared 90% of their moves. Mario and luigi shared like 60%. THAT is a semi-clone. And in Brawl, they only share like 5 moves. How can you consider the links semi clones when the bros are also semi clones? They have DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT numbers of similar moves.71.87.116.224 12:23, 15 June 2013 (EDT)