Forum:The Tier List, version 2/Archive1

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New tier list. Discuss. --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 22:13, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Old comments[edit]

I already started a section on the old topic, but oh well. Lots of changes in the tier below top in this one. Every old high tier got moved, with Marth and Diddy getting to A Tier, DK and Wolf moving down and so on.- Hatake91 (talk) 22:22, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


Why on earth did ZSS go up 5? Ness and Lucas should be at least C.

Once again. Jigglypuff went down, not happy. Ice climbers went down, not happy. Falco went up, happy. Wolf went down, not happy. Y462 (TCE ) 22:25, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

YEAH!!!! Peach went up!!! Shes in the exact middle if you take the numbers away! JtM =^] (talk) 23:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Ya know, Im gonna make my own page with commentary on this. Go here to see my views. Cheezperson {talk}stuff 00:19, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm really not liking the Sonic Riders-style "SS Tier" bit; what was wrong with High, Mid, Low? Anyways, Kirby's up one, which I like. Falco went up, which I like. Marth is back on the top, but R.O.B. going down disappoints me. Wario's too high for his own good (Wario for bottom tier!). Olimar's skyrocket was expected. Wolf shouldn't have gone down. Luigi should have gone down, Zelda up. Link's finally gone up! Ness and Lucas are going the wrong way, and that's all I have to say.--Meta-K (talk) 00:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

IMO, this version is a little better. R.O.B. and Wolf can no longer be targeted by scrubs as "cheap" now that they're low enough, but unfortunately, neither can Pit. I wish Mario and Ness would be placed in their rightful places, which is the 'C' tier, being that they have balanced attributes. Then again, their terrible recoveries would bring them to the 'D' ranking. I'm amazed at Olimar's placement O.o His recovery is terrible, as it doesn't grab the ledge 100% of the time, and he's very light, but he does have fast, strong smashes and aerials as well as outstanding speed. I also see how Ganondorf and C. Falcon haven't moved >.> Blue Ninjakoopa 00:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Tier listing doesn't mean that scrubs will still call characters cheap. I'm actually a bit surprised that ZSS and Olimar went up, and Pokemon Trainer went down. Cheezperson {talk}stuff 00:51, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
What? I'm saying that the common scrub will call anything cheap so long as it's associated with a high tier character, and you should know that by now. If a scrub calls a lower tier character cheap, then that scrub should then be known as a n00b. ZSS is really good, actually. Blue Ninjakoopa 00:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Scrubs come in all shapes and sizes. Don't be discriminatory against the scrubs who call low tier characters cheap lol! ZSS isn't as good as Toon Link. Or Pit. Or Wolf Cheezperson {talk}stuff 01:05, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
lol Blue Ninjakoopa 01:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure that there are plenty of non-n00b scrubs out there who have whined about stuff like this at least once, which has nothing to do with tiers. But yes, I do agree with CP (I used to like ZSS, but I find Samus is actually better now). Toon Link should be higher.--Meta-K (talk) 01:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Toon Link is floaty, light, and easily juggled, and of course you agree with 'CP'. :roll: Blue Ninjakoopa 01:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Sonic and Link went up but, only by a couple of places. Still, at least they went up. Unknown the Hedgehog 02:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Not many complaints from me, really. MK and Snake are broken beyond all imagination so's nice to see Falco up higher IMO, and Marth and Diddy needed that boost. Wario really should've gone down, and idk why R.O.B. did. Olimar shot WAAAY up, which is suprising but not all that bad I guess. Kirby needs to be even higher but it's cool that he got bumped up, but I wonder what caused DK and IC to drop so much? ZSS shot up which is cool, and Pit got brought down like he deserves :D. Why Wolf got lowered is beyond me, and the same goes for Bowser. Fox got lowered AGAIN lol. WTH how did Lucas tie with Ness? I can't belive Sonic went up and PT went down, but Samus did deserve to go upwards some. Yay Link went up, but Gdorf went down D: Shade487z/SeniorSombra! 02:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Finally, Meta Knight and Snake are separated from the rest. But I don't think that Snake should get his own tier, he should be with MK. I'm glad that Falco and Olimar moved up, and Kirby got a bump. However, I'd still like to see the Mother boys get bumped up to at least E tier. -Masq (t/c/e) 02:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I expected Dedede to fall and Olimar to rise, but I though Wolf would've gotten higher if anything.E123Brawler Ω 02:43, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

What the hell does everyone have against Sonic? Ok, so he's not a Nintendo character. BIG DEAL. Sheesh... Blue Ninjakoopa 03:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not bashing on him. And it's just opinions really. I think Sonic is FTW in Brawl, while others disagree. Just like I think Mewtwo in Melee is FTW and again others will disagree. Unknown the Hedgehog 03:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
They both suck. Yeah, some people can elevate characters like Mewtwo and Sonic to high levels of play, but normally they both suck. Shade487z/SeniorSombra! 03:34, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
lol that's your opinion, since they do not "suck", as you put it so harshly. Watch Taj's Shadowclaw videos on YouTube, then look at some Sonic combo vids later, so you can see that they have potential. I'm not taking any offense, I simply stating a fact. I agree with Unknown the Hedgehog as well. IMO, Pikachu sucks. That failure rat... Blue Ninjakoopa 03:41, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Shade proved my point about others disagreeing. Unknown the Hedgehog 03:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
No! They don't "normally" suck! I don't understand what everyone has against Sonic, but if you have a little grudge over a video game character, then you have a serious problem. "You" wasn't directed to anyone. Blue Ninjakoopa 03:50, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
I can't believe Link is that low. Unknown the Hedgehog 03:53, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Trust me, if you play Scatz's Yoshi or Izaw's Link, you'll start a riot lol Blue Ninjakoopa 03:56, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmm...Ike and Ganondorf went down, ZSS went up, and Mario is still out of the bottom five. Fox fell down hard. least Kirby went up one!Silvie (talk) 21:42, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Pluses and minuses[edit]

Here are the differences in places between the old tier list and the new one...

  1. Meta Knight 0
  2. Snake 0
  3. Falco +2
  4. King Dedede -1
  5. Mr. Game & Watch -1
  6. Marth +1
  7. Diddy Kong +4
  8. Wario 0
  9. R.O.B. -3
  10. Lucario -1
  11. Olimar +7
  12. Pikachu 0
  13. Kirby +1
  14. Donkey Kong -4
  15. Ice Climbers -2
  16. Zero Suit Samus +5
  17. Toon Link 0
  18. Pit -3
  19. Peach +5
  20. Wolf -4
  21. Luigi +2
  22. Zelda -2
  23. Bowser -1
  24. Fox -5
  25. Sheik +1
  26. Ike -1
  27. Mario +2
  28. Lucas -1
  29. Ness -1
  30. Samus +1
  31. Sonic +2
  32. Pokémon Trainer -2
  33. Yoshi -1
  34. Link +2
  35. Jigglypuff -1
  36. Ganondorf -1
  37. Captain Falcon 0 Unknown the Hedgehog 04:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Nice job =) Blue Ninjakoopa 04:12, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

The fact is that just because some people have the ability to "not suck" with low tier characters does not mean that they are inherently not worse than the others. Here, the term suck is used relativistically. Take the 0-16 Detroit Lions. Most football followers would tell you that they "suck." And they do. They are (this year) the worst team in the NFL. Yet they could still kick the living daylights out of most college programs. So they are better than many other people, yet with respect to who they are compared to they are terrible. Same with these low tier characters. And I'm glad someone pointed out Taj and Shadowclaw before I did. I'd also like to point out that Taj plays Marth and/or Fox in all of his major games. Tiers exist, some characters suck, some people show cool stuff with them, and then the top tiers win. That's life. Or really, that's Smash Bros. Ultimately, it's just a game. Play Charizard, have a good laugh, make some money if you can, but this ain't gonna get you laid... Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 04:12, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, you certainly put it in a nicer way than Shade did, no offense to him. I concur entirely. Blue Ninjakoopa 04:20, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I do think highly of meta Knight and Snake, and I do appreciate there presence as the top tiered characters. But, I don't really "care" about tier lists. Tier lists can be innaccurate because of the fact that they reflect tournament wins. You also need to consider the fact that the players are sometimes unknown and their skill is undeterminable. But, I do have some things for tier lists. no matter what the tier list says, I'll forever main Kirby. Anyways, I think...

  • Kirby should be a higher, possibly within the top ten.
  • R.O.B. should be dropped out of the top ten.
  • Jigglypuff should be last!
  • Ganondorf and Capt. Falcon should be a LOT higher.

SapphireKirby777 (talk) 19:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Four Words: Worst. Tier list. Ever.--User:Mudkipz (talk) 15:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Any particular reason why MK and Snake have their own seperate tiers? Those SB people could've saved a lot of time and effort by placing them at the top of the A rank, providing seven tiers instead of nine. And why is there such a big difference in number of tiers this time around? The first version had four, but this one has nine? That makes zero sense. And why letters? What's wrong with Top, High, Middle, etc.? I swear, they continue to confuse me more and more as revisions are made to this list. That also expands to where the characters are placed, but I think I'll keep that to myself. - GalaxiaD Talk 22:35, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Meta Knight is loleasy Blue NinjakoopaTalk 22:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Maybe it's because the characters need to have a set amount of points to be in a certain tier? NProbably, which is why Snake and MK have their own, because no one has a # as close. -ACDCGAMER (talk) 07:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Wow. Falco moved up (sweet...). By the way, should we add to the tier list article that SWF/SBR estimate that the next Brawl tier list will come out in June? MarioGalaxyMay Guthix be with you... 23:55, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I didn't think C. Falcon was that bad just because he was last, but he got a 1 out 15. Too many retired Falcon players or something... GameGeekHeavyweights FTW/

Getting first out of 15 is that much of an accomplishment. If it was a larger scale tourney like first out of 30-50 then it would be impressive. JtM =^] (talk) 14:59, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Marth moved up!! (too bad I now suck at him...) Where can I see the details of the scores that the characters recieved? I have a few opinions that I might voice once I see the list. Is there any reason why there are so many tiers? I think that there should be around five, maybe six at most. By the way: Pikachu for Top Tier!!

Alexwang (talk) 23:12, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Wolf went down=FTL Masterman 2009 19:46, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

But is having a nine-tier list rational? Can they not integrate some of them? I mean, why have just one character in a tier? Well, if it was Captain Falcon, I would not cpmplain, but this is kind of different. In a bad knd of way. Why not put Snake and Meta Knight in the same top tier? I guess I just don't get it this time. DarkSmasherElite (talk) 05:16, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

iirc, it's based on a point system relative to each other. The tiers are determined based on the point value. Also iirc, MetaKnight, defining the curve, is at 15. Snake is at 13.97. Nobody else is even close. That's what they are in separate tiers. Semicolon (talk) 05:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

New tier designations[edit]

OK, so since no one has asked so far, I guess I'll get this conversation going: why are there NINE different "tiers" this time around? The last list had a simple four (Top, High, Middle, and Low). Now, Meta Knight is practically listed as a god, Snake as a demigod, and C Falc, Ganon, Jiggles, and the Hero of Time as trash from the bottom of the dumpster in the G tier! Was it officially decided that we have to cause further tensions between those who faithfully follow tiers, those who don't believe in them, and those who simply want to improve their skill in the game, without being forced to choose a side? Can someone shed some light on this matter?--Meta-K (talk) 17:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

If I had to guess (nobody really said why on Smashboards), it has to do with more characters in the game (true, the last one was like Melee's, but maybe SBR didn't think it worked well for Brawl?) and trying to further categorize the differences in ability between tiers. For example, MK and Snake are the best characters in the game, but MK is a lot better than Snake. Shade487z/SeniorSombra! 17:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
I asked this on the talk page for the tier list. But if you're asking what I think you're asking, the amount of professionals that main low tier character is about the same as the amount of them who use high tier characters, mostly Snake (high) and C. Falcon (low). I'd also like to reference Cheezperson's view of tiers at this point; read the G Tier section. Blue Ninjakoopa 20:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


Shouldn't we add the numbers for this tier list like melee's? After all Ness and Lucas, are considered even in this tier list but smashers who don't read the actual post might get confused. - Hatake91 (talk) 01:13, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with this. Hopefully the tier list article doesn't turn out like the old weight article, where Melee's section was the one most payed attention to. Blue Ninjakoopa 01:25, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Get over that. The reason we had all the information on Melee was that someone had done that research years ago, long before brawl came around. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 22:00, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
You like Melee better than Brawl, we know. :roll: Blue Ninjakoopa 00:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


Mr. Magical person who posted the tier list on SBR (this guy) finally gave reasoning for the new system. It makes a lot of sense when you think about it, considering how unbalanced this game is. His reasoning:

  • Gaps between tiers were relatively large
  • The spread within tiers was relatively small.
  • The particular number of tiers isn't special--that's just how the votes ended up. The majority of us believed that using a smaller number of tiers would be misleading, given the results.

So there you have it! The old formatting didn't exactly fit Brawl's roster due to a decrease in overall character balance and an increase in the number of playable characters...and Jigglypuff (lol). Shade487Contributions:Shade487z|z]] 22:47, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The link is to the SBR I think.Smoreking(T) (c) 22:49, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
No, the link leads to the SWF profile of the guy who posted the tier list. btw new sig! ...kinda...Shade487z 22:50, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Oh, I don't have an account, so that's probably why I couldn't go there.Smoreking(T) (c) 22:53, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Having fun trying to make GXD look stupid? >.> Blue NinjakoopaTalk 23:07, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
It still doesn't make sense to me. What's the difference between a gap and a spread? They both measure distance between two objects (in this case, tiers), so he's basically saying that this "hole" is both too large and too small. Zero sense, my friends. - GalaxiaD Talk 23:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
No, it makes sense. The spread is the range of scores within a tier, which helped create the teirs, because the spread inside tiers is generally low. A gap is the large breaks between one character and the next- these are what created the divisions between one tier and the next. For example, the spread is the range of scores across tier B- relatively low, with a difference of .53. A gap is the difference between, say, Ike and Mario (1.35) or Yoshi and Link (1.38). The large breaks on Image:Graphicaltiers.gif are gaps; the ranges with little change are spreads. --Shadowcrest 23:37, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Epic.Smoreking(T) (c) 23:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for helping me explain that, Shadowcrest. Shade487z 00:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
*shakes head* -_- Blue NinjakoopaTalk 01:42, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I move to amend the tier list[edit]

To put the fish at SSS Tier. Contribut'd. Semicolon (talk) 05:03, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations, that joke just made it to the official tier thread on Smashboards thanks to me XD. Shade487z 06:08, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I move to place the Parasite Queen in the same tier. - GalaxiaD Talk 23:00, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
NO! Cheezperson {talk}stuff 06:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
I move to place JAWSH at Z tier. Blue NinjakoopaTalk 11:31, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
I move to place FD's ledge in the aforementioned SSS Tier. (it gimps easily and it shames you every time you get killed by it). IrvThaSol a.k.a Ungod (talk to me) 00:17, 10 January 2009

Dang, Semicolon's done started a new fad...sorry, no idea from me. I don't do fads. Nerdiness FTW. Shade487z 03:05, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Fads are created by nerds, genius. xD Blue NinjakoopaTalk 03:09, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, but by the time they're fads we've stopped doing them. Don't try to think like a nerd. Shade487z 05:31, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I wasn't trying to think like a nerd. I can't, because I'm not one. :( Someone's in a sour mood today... Blue NinjakoopaTalk 05:41, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Nope, all the effects on THIS DAMN STAGE are for the SSS-S Tier. Ike's Best BuddyHere, my Friends

I say the ultimate chimera instantly goes SSSSS tier for being so darn annoying (THe Hobster)

OH I SEE[edit]

I finally understand what the chart meant. Shadowcrest's explanation was too epic for me, but I figured out. Simplification of Shadowcrest's explanation for those of us who lack intellectual awesomeness.

Tier gaps.jpg

The gaps in between groups indicate the next tier. For example, look at the last four (Link, Jiggs, Ganondorf, Falcon). They all seem pretty close in the length of the bar, but between Link and Yoshi, there is a noticeable difference in the length. On the tier list, that indicates the next tier. Then up to Mario, they're kind of the same, but when you get to Ike, there's a gap, and that's the next tier.

I was proud of myself, so I posted that. Feel free to make fun of me for not realizing that sooner. Smoreking(T) (c) 18:28, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

*makes fun of you for not realizing that sooner* Blue NinjakoopaTalk 18:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
*makes fun of everyone else that didn't get it*
But in all seriousness, anybody ever given this any thought? Sakurai is the head honcho for Kirby games...MK and D3 are really high tier and Kirby was buffed significantly in this game. There are a lot of Kirby-themed items appearing in Brawl (dragoon, star rod, springs...yes, they're the same kind in KSS/KSSU), and a Kirby-based object (Halberd) is one of the key elements in the entire SSE. Coincidence? I don't think so. Shade487z 22:46, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
What? I got it, Shade. And of course Sakurai would do that, those are his creations. :roll: Blue NinjakoopaTalk 00:18, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I didn't say you were one of them. My post did not say *makes fun of everyone else because no one got it*, my post said, *makes fun of everyone who didn't get it*. Shade487z 02:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, well. I didn't show up here for quite a while (I was too busy with Metin2 :P). And now I see a new list... with 9 tiers?? Wow, that caught me off guard! Xeze (talk) 01:46, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Kirby is so much lower than Meta Knight and King Dedede. :( I may think if I possibly come into tournaments in the future, then Kirby's ranking may increase due to the fact that I MAY win some tournaments. Hmm...nah. It'll never work. Poor Kirby!! :( (Behold my intellectual superiority! YESH!) SapphireKirby777 20:49, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Scrubs! They're everywhere! Blue NinjakoopaTalk 22:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Boy, I sure wish more people would play more as Sonic. Once you get used to his moves, I personally he is the best character to use in the game.

Says you. Bowser's trash but he's one of my best characters. That doesn't make him any good. Shade487z 17:29, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Bowser is better in Brawl than in Melee. He has faster attacks, better falling speed (not really, since everyone in Brawl is floaty) and plenty of killing moves. He also has the best weight in the game. His only flaws are his ending lag for Smashes, and that he's easy to combo. Sonic is good too, since he doesn't suck at all. Blue NinjakoopaTalk 19:56, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Nobody in their right mind would doubt Bowser's improvement but he still sucks. You don't see him winning tournaments, right? Exactly. Same goes for Sonic. He sucks almost as bad. Shade487z 21:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I personally don't think it's the character (with the exception of MK lol) that sucks, but the player. Or it could be that worse characters take more time to master, as opposed to high tiers like Snake and MK. Sonic is just bad against characters smaller than he is, plus his bad match-ups with characters that are his size. I think he's pretty good. Same thing goes for Bowser, 'cept he has a better chance since his attacks have better range and speed. Blue NinjakoopaTalk 22:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Right and wrong. Some characters are much harder to use, but that simply shows that the character sucks. Gimpy himself will tell you straight up that Bowser sucks...and he's not in Brawl, but that's irrelevant. Shade487z 00:09, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

The learning curve for a character is irrelevant, it'll turn off some players, but it doesn't mean anything in the long run as far as whether or not the character is good. A good example of this is Ice Climbers. Mario, the classic man of Nintendo

There's an exception to everything. Shade487z 18:24, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

My point is that match-ups and characteristics make the character, not how difficult they are to use. Mario, the classic man of Nintendo

In a way, we're both right. When I say harder to use, I mean harder to win with in tournaments, not just harder to pick up and play. Shade487z 13:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


Shouldn't it be mentioned that some people ( like myself) believe in tiers, and yet find the current tier list to be wrong? For instance, i find Sonic and Captain Falcon to be high tier characters, yet i find Meta Knight to be medium. Don't call me an idiot for thinking this, i'm being respectful to you guys. I may not be a "top level" smash bros. player, but I have been faithfully playing it sense the original when i was in second grade, and yet I find myself at odds with most "tierists" and those who adhere to "tournament rules", but i do acknowledge the existence of tiers. Popie (talk) 00:57, 29 January 2009 (UTC) (PS: Wario should be the exact bottom!!"

I don't know how much you read, but this entire forum is about people who believe yet disagree with the present rankings. If you're talking about wanting the actual tier list page to reflect that some people disagree with current ranking, then (a) this is the wrong place and (b) the tier list page is about what the SBR says the tier list is, not who disagrees with them. I disagree with the tier list on some accounts, but I also disagree with your interpretation of what the differences should actually be. We're on equal footing, but neither of us is the SBR. Semicolon (talk) 01:22, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I'll also point out that if you are making your tier lists based on rules other than those of the SBR, it would not be unusual to see some differences as you are experiencing different circumstances than those who made the list. That being said, it then becomes irrelevant to the discussion of the SBR tier list if your findings are generated from a different environment. (Please don't take this the wrong way. I fully condone playing under whatever the hell settings you want, I'm just pointing out the lack of connection between casual play and SBR tier lists.) Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 01:43, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, thanks! that helps me understand the tier things a little better. happy gaming :) Popie (talk) 02:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

tiers should not exist[edit]

tiers are the most retarded thing that i have ever heard of there is no such thing as some character being better than another it all has to do with how you play the game all a tier list is as and opinion there is no such thing as a real tier list opinion is not fact deal with it

Get over yourself. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 19:07, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
the fact that you claim tiers dont exist because you think theyre stupid is like saying captialization and punctuation dont exist because you think its stupid because i can write like this all day but that doesnt stop me failing a paper written like this in the same way that you can play without regarding tiers but that doesnt defeat the fact that good meta knight players tend to kick the butts of good captain falcon players
(Some people call me a jerk...I call it having fun...)--Meta-Kirb (talk) 00:24, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
I consider myself a Neutral Tier. I believe that any character can beat another charater based on skill but.... if a level 9 Marth fights a level 9 jigglypuff. who's gonna win? Marth!! (Shut up Jigglypuff fanboys, I hate your stupid nearly reasonable logic!). But a level 9 jigglypuff is gonna beat a level 1 Marth (happy now?) this is my view.- Peakprovince (talk) 20:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
You've got the right idea, but in that same sense, the characters that win tournaments more frequently are the ones who place high...except in Europe. You people have Falcon winning tourneys...WHAT? Shade487z 22:47, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

i totally agrreed with ya dude.....tiers really r just matters how on's skill with that player is............ finally, someone whose not a tier believer....and o yea(to the dude posted before me), C. Falcon is a great character to play with....great moves,great C. Falcon doesnt suck.....mainly because u tried him and ur not good with him.....i know alot of people who like to play as Falcon.....just cause u suck at C. Falcon doesnt mean the whole wide world sucks as him.......FALCON PUUUUUNCH!!!! lol

To above poster: Falcon Fail. There are plenty of people who don't like tiers, and I've come to realize that most of 'em suck. And you've gotta back up your claim when you call out someone better than you. Cheezperson {talk}stuff 03:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Huh? People who disagree with the tier list suck? That's a pretty stupid thing to say... I think the tier list is pretty accurate. Paper Bowser (talk) 05:20, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

dude......falcon doesnt suck....u maybe played him and didnt like the way he i said b4 .....just cause u suck as him doesnt mean everyone else does.....and tiers need to be forgotton ....the game is a party game...not some super ultra mega fighters game....people get with the program....bunch of fanboys....except clarinet all comes down to players skill not the characters skill

Falcon does suck in most cases. You can forget tiers, but statistics show that tiers do, in fact, exist. As for the player's skill argument, try putting a level 9 Meta Knight against a level 9 Falcon. This is to demonstrate the fact that if two players are of equal skill, chances are the one with the higher tier character will win.Smoreking(T) (c) 19:53, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I would like to point out that using computer-controlled characters in a tier list discussion is probably not the best idea, since the tier list is based on humans playing under tournament rules. Toomai Glittershine The Stats Guy 20:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
It was purely for example of two players with the same skill, so s/he could actually witness the effects of character advantages.Smoreking(T) (c) 20:44, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Nah, Smore, he's got you there. Have you ever played against a CPU Snake? Doesn't do it rite. I think a few people misunderstood what I said. I meant that people who shun the tier list and call it crap (without good explanation or skills to back it up with, mind you) generally suck. People who might disagree with a few placements (including myself) make up the majority of the community. To anyone who thinks that Captain Falcon is good in tourneys, look up some tourney results. Fairly self explanatory. In fact, if you think you're so good, enter a tournament online. If you can't back yourself up, why bother arguing in the first place? Cheezperson {talk}stuff 05:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Real life tourneys are a little more mentionable though. And Captain Falcon's placement on the tier list has even been debated by SBR members, who state he should at least be higher than Yoshi, Ganondorf, or Link. I personally don't care though. I mean yeah, tiers exist, but knowing who is where on a tier list doesn't really help you much. It's pretty obvious to tell who's on top *coughcoughMetaKnightcoughcough* without the list, so if you were making a choice of your main based on that alone you wouldn't really need the tier list for that. But hey, since they're that intent on making this list such a big deal, they really should make a separate tier list for offline play and online play. After all, many characters (such as Wolf and Ike) play great online but are terrible offline, just like how some characters (to my knowledge, Marth is one of the best examples) play a lot better offline than online. The two lists would, indeed, be pretty different and it'd probably make a lot of people happier. MK and Snake would still rape though. Shade487z 07:35, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

its just that u tier-believers turned an awesome game into a boring game when tiers were implemented....tiers r useless im srry thats just my opinion.....go ahead.....blam me again ya nintendo fanboys....i dont care......its a party game.....get over yourselfes

How is the game boring now with tiers? I do respect your opinion but, fanboys? Don't take this offensively. This is more of constructive criticism than a bash. You're the one who typed in Smash Wiki, clicked on the link, went to the forum, and said that we're fanboys. You said yourself,"an awesome game". Just because one likes a game doesn't mean that he/she is a fanboy/girl. What are we doing that we need to get over ourselves? SSBB is a fighting game by the way. Unknown the Hedgehog 16:30, 18 April 2009 (UTC) can make an argument that SSB is at least partly in the party genre in that, through random events (items) and player-set handicaps, everyone can have fun playing. Toomai Glittershine The Table Designer 18:19, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
That's right, you can configure your own rules, throwing tiers out the window almost altogether. To the anonymous IP who can't spell, type, etc., you can choose to not believe the tier list exist. Heck, I didn't know there was a melee tier list until a year before brawl came out! Knowledge of the tier list shouldn't affect your choice of main(s). SBR knows more about the game and its mechanics than anybody here, and really just about anywhere for that matter, and what they put out is mostly OK with me. If you just can't handle the fact that your favorite racing bounty hunter doesn't do well in tournaments, go ahead and think that. Once again, if you want to try and re-shape the community's view of Captain Falcon (or any character), go for it! Enter a tournament, make a video, it doesn't matter! It's as simple as that. Cheezperson {talk}stuff 00:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
It's obvious that this guy doesn't play by SBR tourney rules so for people such as Mr. Anonymous IP With Bad Spelling, tiers are pretty irrelevant. Saying that they don't exist at all isn't correct, though. Shade487z 04:13, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The SSBB Tier List (In My Opinion)[edit]

  • Top Tier
  • 1-Ike
  • 2-Kirby
  • 3-Marth
  • 4-Wario
  • 5-Sonic
  • 6-Captain Falcon
  • 7-Toon Link
  • High Tier
  • 8-Snake
  • 9-Meta Knight
  • 10-Mr. Game & Watch
  • 11-King Dedede
  • 12-Bowser
  • 13-Pit
  • 14-Ice Climbers
  • Middle Tier
  • 15-Mario
  • 16-Ganondorf
  • 17-Luigi
  • 18-Falco
  • 19-Fox
  • 20-Donkey Kong
  • 21-Olimar
  • Low Tier
  • 22-Diddy Kong
  • 23-Samus
  • 24-Zero Suit Samus
  • 25-Pikachu
  • 26-Pokemon Trainer
  • 27-Lucario
  • 28-Sheik
  • Bottom Tier
  • 29-Yoshi
  • 30-Link
  • 31-Zelda
  • 32-Wolf
  • 33-Peach
  • 34-Ness
  • 35-Lucas
  • 36-R.O.B.
  • 37-Jigglypuff

Eventhough I don't care about tiers at all, I think this should be the tier list and I don't care what you fanboys think. -KoopaKidJr.

Even though I don't care about tiers at all either, I think the SBR knows what they're talking about when they make tiers and I don't care what nobodies like you think. :P Shade487z 21:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Tiers R 4 Queers -KoopaKidJr.
If that's true, then why did you make a tier list? Y462 (TCE ) 23:18, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Sigh...kid, please read this. Semicolon (talk) 23:21, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't care about tiers, I just hated the new SSBB tier list, so I made my own one. I know this doesn't make sense, but this is MY OPINION of what it should have been. -KoopaKidJr.

So you don't care about them enough to make one of your own? Miles (talk) 23:39, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
He's just like the old me; criticizing the tier list because the characters that he likes aren't in the correct places. I believe his version of the tier list was actually made out of how well he plays with them, or who he likes the most to the least. Nonetheless, noone gives a flying **** what he thinks. :p Blue Ninjakoopa 23:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Play nice in the forums. (-_-) Miles (talk) 00:00, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Srsbsns.gif Blue Ninjakoopa 00:05, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
zzz, less personal attacks pls --Shadowcrest 00:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm I the only guy that thinks it sucks that all the crappy characters get good Final Smashes and all the good characters get crappy Final Smashes (with a few exceptions) -KoopaKidJr.
This isn't about tiers in matches with items, this tier list is for this type of match, which uses no Final Smash of any sort. Shade487z 03:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Here's an idea for a new tier list[edit]

So you take all the characters and you play them. And if one of them sucks in the mirror match-up (i.e. Charizard) that's the bottom. Then you take all the ones who suck when your blind-folded, and their the lower. Then you get a hot pocket and if you can beat classic and it still tastes not like Martha Stuarts ass, thats the middle tier. FOr the upper, you get a few bottles and you try to see if you can ballance them on your head while playing and if you win, they in da upper. And for the BAD ASS Tier? you gots to be able to win with them even while your girl is giving you a good time. Seriously, this is how we do tiers. Solid Dragenah (talk) 06:01, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Never again. If I see you post an inanity like this again, I'm blocking you, so consider this a warning. Semicolon (talk) 06:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Let's consider this as an argument from someone who cannot refute tiers existence smartly : no response. Metalink187 (talk) 11:26, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Back to the Discussion[edit]

So, what happened to Fox? I mean, you don't drop 24 spots for nothing. Did his Metagame rely so heavily on the Melee wavedash that it was completely obliterated in Brawl? When I play him (I never played Fox at a really high level, so I might be mistaken), it didn't seem like he was a whole lot different. What's more likely, I think, is perhaps some of the new chracters/improved veterans might have had changes that favour them in the match-up, but does anyone know for sure? (Snake FTF btw :P)--Meta-Kirb (talk) 22:49, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Agreed on both parts. Falco's changes saved him basically :/ Too bad I'm no good at Brawl Falco. Shade487z 23:56, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Melee Falco > Brawl Falco; it ain't your fault. :\ Blue Ninjakoopa 00:21, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Its probably because of the loss of wavedashing that Fox and Falco dropped. SapphireKirby777 ~Behold! -.- 16:58, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't really think that wavedashing is THAT important in Melee (Except with Luigi). I think the nerf Fox underwent is due to the transformation of the gameplay (Gravity for the most important factor) and the new characters (MK lolz). Metalink187 (talk) 17:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Times Played[edit]

Could it be possible that MK and Snake are in the top tier because they are used more in tournaments and Ganondorf and CF are in the bottom because nobody really wants to play as either one of them in tournaments? Maybe a lot of people want to play as MK but hardly anybody wants to play as Jigglypuff so of course MK would have more tournament victories. Unknown the Hedgehog 01:20, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Nope. In fact, the reason that Snake/MK are played more is because they're good enough to win tournies, hence why they're legit for being top tier. Personal preference doesn't really affect tiers. There are still quite a handful of loyal CF and Fox players but in that same sense the characters just aren't good enough to win multiple tournies across the nation. The player may be great with them (i.e., Gimpy), but that doesn't mean people all over can win with that same character. Shade487z 03:17, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


In my opinion and in many other peoples opinions Ike should be far higher up. His throws are pathetic, and his speed isn't that great, but apart from that, there a few factors which degrade him. His attacks, the smashes in particular, have excellent range, his arials are efficiant, his eruption can be a one hit KO (though this is unlikely) and he has 2 recoveries which can be very effective: Quick Draw for horizontal reconvery, and aether for vertical. All of his attacks has significant damage, and i cannot see why he is in such a low spot. (The Hobster)

Ike? Effective recovery? (Vulcan eyebrow raise) His recovery is more limited than Luigi's (Luigi can use Green Missile more than once, it may misfire, and he has the Cyclone), and his opponent can easily jump or throw something out there to stop Quick Draw in its tracks. Toomai Glittershine The Stats Guy 18:50, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

A couple of reasons Ike's lower than you'd expect:

  1. Easily gimped recovery
  2. Extremely slow attacks with lots of lag afterwards
  3. Just slow in general
  4. Can SD way too easily (accidentally pull off an nair after coming off the ledge? You're screwed and that happens more than you think)
  5. Counter isn't even all that reliable because it takes so long to start up, your opponent is probably gonna see it coming and not attack or just grab you instead

Y'know...stuff like that. Plus other characters are just plain-out better than Ike in tourney play. If they had a doubles tier list he'd be really high though. Shade487z 23:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't count number 4 as viable considering that at high levels of play, a SD is very, very, rare.(Johns don't count.). Ike players usually use counter like Roy did in melee, its an amazing edgeguarding move on predictable recoveries. - Hatake91 (talk) 00:01, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Don't SD much? You just don't watch enough vids lol. Shade487z 16:31, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
That's all well and good, but you have to remember that Ike has quite a few things working for him.
  1. His forward smash is the second most powerful in the game (the first being King Dedede).
  2. His b-air attack is surprisingly fast.
  3. His throws can actually be chained with other attacks (such as d-throw and Aether)
  4. If standing near an edge, Ike can throw an opponent off the edge and use some powerful edge guarding techs (Counter is a good example, but a quick forward smash will KO most opponents even at low damage.
  5. Ike's Aether has a meteor spike which, when used properly, can KO some characters at 0% (I've even done this 'Shining Aether' on characters like Meta Knight, Falco and most characters with poor recovery) by using the Aether over the edge, hitting the opponent with the Aether attack, then edge-grabbing while both Ike and the opponent are falling from the attack.
  6. His heavy weight makes him difficult to KO (as long as DI is used).
  7. His up air attack has such a long duration that a character with a fast aerial dodge will still get hit.
  8. He has super armor effect while using Aether (while the sword is out of his hands) and Eruption (just after the attack is released), the latter of the which makes a handy aerial finisher against an opponent trying to hit you with an up air attack.

There are probrably other reasons too, but that's all that comes to mind right now. Lightning Fox (talk) 03:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

imo, I don´t think Ike is bad as much as it is the fact that there are simply superior characters (for tourney rules anyways). Shade487z 12:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
That's the thing with tournaments. The fact that there is a defined ruleset and limited options causes some characters to be better than others simply because of their style. Toomai Glittershine eXemplary Logic 13:03, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
All tourney rules say is (basically) no items, no retarded stages, and best of three. There's nothing saying that you can't play a character in a certain way. And if you rely on items to win all the time, well, then you might have more fun playing slots in Vegas. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:36, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Before anyone else starts yapping on about AiB making you 100% scrub free[edit]

...the tier list is what it is. Point blank. No one is getting anywhere complaining about it. Cheezperson keeps telling these people to make AiB accounts and go to tournaments, but even though that helps, it has nothing to do with the tier list. Yes, Captain Falcon DOES suck, so does Lucas, Jigglypuff, and Ganondorf, but does that stop you from using them? No. You're free to use whomever you wish to use, you just need to be aware of the match-up. I've seen Captain Falcons beat Marths and Snakes, I've seen Marios whoop Ikes and Pikachus, but that does mean they're better. Jesus Christ people... Blue Ninjakoopa 22:01, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Spoiler alert: People are never going to all 100% agree on what you said. It just doesn't happen. ESPECIALLY when people don't know what they're talking about (y'know, those people who say MK shouldn't be top-tier cuz his Final Smash sucks?). It's unavoidable. Shade487z 22:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
You can't stop idiots, from being idiots. - Hatake91 (talk) 02:28, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Here's something to think about. AIB does have to do with tier lists. Notice I said lists. As in the lists that the SBR puts out. I'm sure there is a static tier list for perfect play at the optimal meta-game, but we will never get there. At the present, we just have to do our best out figure out where each character should be based on how real people play them. One of the ways we do that is through looking at tournament placings, and considering AIB does a very good job of tracking tourney results and who played what characters, that gives a deep vault of empirical information for consideration on tier placements. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:27, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean "we"? You aren't an AiB staff member. Hell, you don't even go there. Blue Ninjakoopa 15:44, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Clearly, by 'we,' he means people who play Brawl. Semicolon (talk) 15:51, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

ZOMG it's called the royal we. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 19:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

It Shouldn't Matter to You[edit]

Unless you're in a real SSB tournament, with all the official rules, tiers shouldn't matter to you. Even if you change one rule from the rule book. Most people who hear about tiers assume that tiers go along with the way he or she battles. If you go and play a quick 2 min. battle with items on, tiers don't matter. Unknown the Hedgehog 21:15, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

*facepalm* Cheezperson {talk}stuff 01:59, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Pray tell, do you facepalm because his statement is so painfully obvious? Or because you didn't think to say it? :P Shade487z 04:44, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
The first one. Seriously, use some common sense. Cheezperson {talk}stuff 05:37, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Well the facepalm doesn't really need to be towards UTC. It should be towards the people who think that tiers apply to all the different ways people play the game. I mean, if people actually read the background and reasoning behind tiers before saying the ignorant things they say about them, UTC would've never even had to say that. 'Sides, I think that sometimes you just gotta tell it like it is. Shade487z 06:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Unknown the Hedgehog, not Unknown the Cat. Blue Ninjakoopa 14:15, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Still, people shouldn't go around cursing the tier list if they don't understand what it is. Cheezperson {talk}stuff 22:50, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

To all anti-tierists: Why do you care so much about the tier list? Did it knock you over in the sandbox when you were five? Also, don't change the tier list so that your fave is the GODLIEST CHARACTER EVER. If you really are a good player, you have to know your main's flaws. I main Ike, Marth, and Toon Link. Ike is strong, and has good range, but he's slow, and has a hard time fighting projectiles. Marth is excellent on ground, but his aerials are painfully laggy. Toon lInk's floatiness and godly aerials allow for aerial dominance (screw Jigglypuff), but it also means that he gets KO'd quite easily. Captain Falcon, the bottom tier, has some good attacks, but his awful priority cancels that out. Even Meta Knight, the top tier, has a flaw. He is ovverall awesome, but has a mediocre vertical recovery, and has a poor matchup against YOSHI, of all people. Tiers are based on matchups and data collected from tournaments, not how good the characters are. So...If you're an anti-tierist, there's my counter.L33t Silvie I see wat u did thar... 00:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Wow, how much fail was in the above statement? Let's find out! First off, Marth's aerials are WHAT?!? I'll give you D-air and maybe B-air, but his F-air and N-air have barely any lag to speak of. Seriously, if you don't use your aerials, your using Marth wrong. And Jigglypuff and Toon Link are nowhere near godly in the air! I'd rather not explain it, but trust me, there are WAY better. And and for MK's vertical recovery, his F-special is a better vertical recovery than what you're giving credit for. And nobody but SBR changes the tier list, in case you didn't know that either. Sorry if that came out mean, but it's aggravating hearing this stuff over and over again. Cheezperson {talk}stuff 01:05, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
1) Cheezperson you're a LAWLhypocrite. Marth's aerial game is superb, but who the hell said you have to use his aerials for everything? The last time we played you used Marth "wrong".
2) There was no "fail" in L33tSilvie's statement, he was simply asking why these morons continue to complain about the list.
3) Um, what? Jigglypuff AND Tink are airborne menaces! You can WoP Tink's back airs and Jiggs' forward and b-airs. Stop thinking you know everything.
4) Hearing what over again? If anyone is getting tired of anything, it's you saying that having an AiB account has everything to do with how the tier list comes out. Now, I apologize if that came out mean, but you've been trolling on this same forum ever since April. Please stop. Blue Ninjakoopa 01:31, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


1)I was agreeing with you...
2)By "change the tier list" I mean "liek omg link is so low wtf he should be top tier and dedede sucks why is he so high i mean wtf you fanboys ruin everything i mean how could you put falcon on the bottom i can finally beat the lvl 2 cpu with him and stuf here this is how the tier list shud be and if any1 argues w/ me then they are total morons cause this is where they totally belong all my friends say so now pardon me cause i'm working on an english paper LOOOOOOOOOOOOL..." I think you get the point now.L33t Silvie I see wat u did thar... 02:24, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
@LeetS: Well, you kinda sounded like a fanboy. You prolly should have left it at "I agree." Explaining all of this to the ones who don't agree with tiers is pointless, trust me. Just be glad you aren't one of 'em.
1) I never said use Marth's aerials for "everything." He's got a very good ground and grab game as well. And you can't remember the last time we brawled, it was probably last year.
2) I'm on a boat (but I've got a blimp as backup).
3) Jigglypuff isn't a "menace" in the game. No hit-stun makes it very weak and ineffective. Toon Link's got a very good set of aerials, but he's not as reliable in the air as you think he is.
4) Look at most of this page. There's your answer. I'd suggest that this page be protected, it's just gonna cause trouble. There are way to way people here that don't have a clue what their talking about , and somebody could get hurt *coughcoughrandomipn00bscough*. Cheezperson {talk}stuff 05:29, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
1) Yes you "did". Marth's grabs suck, he can only cg with dthrow (or was it bthrow? I don't play Marth so I don't know). lol you're a terrible liar, we Brawled only a few weeks ago. You're still not as good but what can I say? Your only fulfillments now are trolling on this one forum and lurking on YouTube with a different excuse as to why you aren't any where else.
2) You jizzed in your pants, and you have... uhh...
3) Yes she "is". I repeat: She can WoP with b-air AND f-air although it isn't as effective as it was in Melee. Her ground game sucks, and I know you aren't saying she's better on that field. Have you seen what you've typed? You sound just like you did months ago, thinking you know everything. Toon Link IS reliable in the air. He can fence b-airs like crazy.
4) Hurt? lolno. This forum isn't going to be protected anytime soon because A) that would leave you with nothing else to do and B) we couldn't actually discuss the tier list rather than complain about it. Blue Ninjakoopa 09:53, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Could it be archived, then? It takes my computer forever to do anything on this page.L33t Silvie I see wat u did thar... 14:51, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree with at least archiving this. We should also put a link to semicolon's thing on tiers at the top of this page, it might do some good. And BNK, I haven't played brawl online with friends for over 3 months. Cheezperson {talk}stuff 00:22, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
It's not my fault you don't want to play anymore, and I don't blame you. Try Brawl+. Blue Ninjakoopa 00:26, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm getting back into it. Cheezperson {talk}stuff 00:35, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

lmao, why did I type UTC? Ultimate Trading Card? Idk...*looks up* Oh...that's a lot of...discussion. Look, SOME people here (no names) don't know enough to say what they said about different char's, hence why they're not the one's making the tier list. That's all I'm saying :P. Shade487z 00:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)