Talk:Luigification

Notability

This sounds like some seriously unofficial lingo. Plus the information isn't even accurate, as Luigi was not a direct clone of Mario in SSB. -- Randall00 ^Talk 02:14, March 7, 2007 (GMT)

I agree. In fact, we're currently having this same debate in the "talk" of the Clone characters page. Gargomon251 keeps re-adding Luigi as clone of Mario in SSB, and I proposed a vote on it. As of the last time I checked, our side is winning. I'm going to wait until the end of the day, if we still have the most votes by then, I'm going ahead and editing both these pages.--Bman87301 19:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Did you look at their movesets? Luigi is the closer clone than even Ganondorf was to CF in SSB64! And what's this about Ike? Other than Counter, what moves do they share? And why has someone said that ZSS is a clone of Sheik now? I have yet to see a single move they share. It's like saying Jigglypuff is a clone of Kirby just because of how they jump.... - Gargomon251 21:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

You can't even see how Ike and Marth are related? Okay... I'm starting to get the strong impression you really don't understand the full concept of semi-clones/Luigification. They don't have to be the exact same moves, they just have to be loosely based on someone else. You must be blind, if you can't tell how Ike's moveset is based off Marth's. Zero Suit Samus isn't as certain, but after examining the moves I can certainly understand the reasoning. They both have a whip-like forward special, and a chargeable projectile as a neutral special, as well similar body movements. Depending how neutral forward moves end up working during gameplay, I'd say suggesting her moves were based off Sheik's wouldn't be a stretch at all. But I'd have to actually play as her first before I could give a solid opinion either way... But we only have about one more day, then we'll all know for sure. --Bman87301 23:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Look at Infil's character exposés on youtube. Their attacks are very different in most cases. Even more than Mario and Luigi (in Brawl). And if "movement style" is any indication, Jigglypuff is practically a clone of Kirby.- Gargomon251 00:19, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. Melee clones were defined through similar attack animations. Even though even cloned attacks usually varied in strength, knockback, hitbox etc. or had a specific effect like fire added. they still had the same base animations. Ganondorf was the first exception ebcause of his Unique Fair, and Luigi was rightfully called a "luigified" clone because a bunch of his animations were different. This included his Side B, his Jab Combo, his Dash Attack, his Up-Tilt, his F-Smash and his F-Air. Unless I missed something here, that's 6 different moves including 1 different special move. The same applies to the luigified Brawl clones (Toon Link, Falco, Ganondorf). However, clones or luigified clones are not defined through special mvoes alone. The rest of Luigi's moveset had the same animations as Mario's, including 2 specials, 2 smashes, 2 tilts, 4 aerials and 4 throws. This is what made him a luigified clone instead of a character with a few vague resemblences to another one LIKE IKE IS. He has a similar Down B (Counter) and a vaguely conceptually similar Neutral B. His Up B isn't really comparable to Marth's, and neither is his Side B. However, the rest of his moveset, including pretty much all smashes, tilts, throws, jab, dash attack and aerials are completely different. Obviously that's a different case as with Luigi, where the majority of his moveset, both special and standard, was the same as Mario's. The bottom line is that when defining a clone, you shouldn't only take the special moves into account and also look at the animations of the attack, not just their concepts. Otherwise, you could say Link and Samus would be luigified clones, as they share an Up B Spin Attack, a Side B Non-chargeable projectile, a Neutral B chargeable projectile and Down B bombs. Ike = Semi-clone. He's a blue-haired swordsman and that's it. Have you actually played the game? Serpit 17:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Ike and Marth

For some reason individuals are removing Ike and Marth from the listing. Let's open a discussion and clear up any confusion that may be going on. First of all. "Luigified" refers to characters whose special moveset is at least loosely based off another's. Ike's moves seem clear to be undoubtedly based off Marth's. Gargomon251 argued that Ike's Quick Draw and Marth's Dancing Blade are nothing alike. First of all, I disagree with that, they seem based off each other to me, but the degree to which Quick Draw may differ from Dancing Blade is irrelevant, since the very term "Luigified" allows for some moves to be completely different anyways, such as Luigi's Green Missile and Luigi Cyclone versus Mario's Cape and F.L.U.D.D. If anyone else has any other debates about this feel free to add and discuss.--Bman87301 17:10, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

See again Infil's character vids on youtube. And as soon as I unlock Marth, I will know for sure and put this whole thing to rest. Until then, they are as different as Lucario and Mewtwo (I am aware that they are not present in the same Smash). - Gargomon251 17:15, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Please refer to my argument on the intersection above. Clones and luigified clones aren't defined by special moves alone. the rest of the mvoveset has to be taken into account as well. Ike has one similar special move (2 arguably similar ones, I'm leaning towards no) and a completely different standard moveset, while Luigi had 3 similar special moves and a 3/4 similar standard moveset. Serpit 17:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

You have to keep in mind that unlike the "Melee clone" classification, the "Luigified clone" classification is completely unofficial and is based primarily on opinion so a single formula to determine what classifies as such isn't really plausible. Some have clearly been a lot more/less Luigified than others, so they're all going to vary by degree. Maybe what we should instead is the keep the list more open ended. First, instead of just putting a listing of names, we put descriptions of the similarities that "could" make them clones and let the reader decide. Secondly, make the list less rigid Rather than only listing the ones we've predetermined to be the most characteristic of the "Luigified clone" classification, we should simply list "Possible examples of Luigification". For example:

===Possible examples of Luigification===

====[[Lucas]] and [[Ness]]==== '''Cloness Ratio:''' ''Medium''
Both share same basic special moves such as...blah, blah,
blah, different normal moves.... blah.. blah, blah, blah..

====[[Toon Link]] and [[Link]]==== '''Cloness Ratio:''' ''Very high''
blah blah blah blah blah....

====[[Ike]] and [[Marth]]==== '''Cloness Ratio:''' ''Low''
blah blah blah blah blah....

====[[Wolf]] and [[Fox]]==== '''Cloness Ratio:''' ''whatever''
blah blah blah blah blah....

Does something like this seem more fair?--Bman87301 23:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Great idea, I was just doing the math myself. How about we do it as a percentile? Each character has 21 attacks, including final smash and throws, right? So to find the clone ratio we take (similar moves)/21. Also, the animation and hitboxes is more important than the overall effect e.g. Eruption vs Shield Breaker. But where is the line between actual clone (Ganondorf (SSBM)) and semi-clone (Lucas (SSBB))? That is something else that will have to be discussed. - Gargomon251 00:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

That's exactly why I didn't go ahead try to implement it myself already. It's gonna take a bit of planning first. First, we're gonna all have to play the game and familiarize ourselves with the characters and make our own determinations. When we recognize aspects that could be considered "cloness", we post it, and others can add to it. Like I was saying before, since the line between clone and semi-clone is pretty vague, I think it would just be easier just to say high,low, medium, very high, very low, etc. Trying to come up with an exact formula for the precise percentage of "cloness" seems pretty impossible, so trying would seem like a waste of time to me. Besides a "ball park" should be pretty easy to determine just by playing as them, some are obvious even without playing-- Link/Toon Link's "ball park" already seems obvious to be very high (since they're arguably direct clones), Ness/Lucas would be medium since they seem evenly split between normal and special moves. Marth/Ike's would be Low, and Sheik/Zero Suit Samus would be Very Low . That seems like the best method to me but if you think you can come up with a way and are willing to take the time to calculate an accurate precise percentage, then by all means go for it. --Bman87301 01:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

After playing as both, I conclude that Marth/Ike are BY NO MEANS clones. Compare: up tilt, down aerial, SIDE SPECIAL. Quick draw is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LIKE double edge. He's not even close enough for luigification! It's like comparing them to Link really, just because they have swords. The ways they move and damage and knockback are totally different. I'm removing them both from the list until further notice. If anyone disagrees, go into Training Mode. I would even post a youtube video myself if I had the software. - Gargomon251 04:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

You, my friend, are in utter denial. Upon playing, there's no longer any shred of doubt that Ike's a Luigified version of Marth... no doubt whatsoever. Yes, they have many differences, and are definitely a lot higher on the Luigifcation scale than Lucas and Ness, but Ike's overall special moveset definitely originated from Marth's Melee design. You can't ignore that Ike's Eruption is pretty much the same move as the Melee version of Shield Breaker (granted, with some small differences). And while the "up special" has significantly been altered for Ike and is now a more like Kirby's, it still has a strong enough resemblance to Marth's original move and it retains the same spirit. Marth and Ike still share the same overall style, and it doesn't take long for anyone who mastered Marth/Roy in Melee, to adjust and master Ike-- that fact alone proves there's a Luigified relation between the two and definitely deserve mention on this page. Now that I've had plenty of hands on experience, I can definitely agree with you that Sheik and Zero Suit Samus have no relation besides appearance, but if you can't admit there's a relationship between Marth and Ike's special moves, you're just kidding yourself.--Bman87301 19:36, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

YOU are the one in denial here. Let's look again, shall we? Here are the moves they both share: Down Smash, Forward Smash, and Down B. THAT IS ALL. Ok, I'm even willing to give you Eruption, despite the fact that the hitbox, animation, and damage are TOTALLY DIFFERENT from Shield Breaker. No more similar than Stone and Bowser Bomb. So that said, let's do the math: 21 moves, 4 the same, 4/21=19%. That's not even enough to be Luigified. Just because Ike replaced Roy doesn't make him a clone any more than Lucario is of Mewtwo, Luigified or not. - Gargomon251 21:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

C'mon, you and I both know that they both play the same basic way and those who were good with Marth/Roy, will be able to learn Ike fairly quick-- despite their high degree of differation, they're still loosely based off each other. Like I said before (and you agreed), this is an "unofficial term" and is largely based on individual POV rather than on any specific criteria. Just because you personally disagree with it doesn't mean it should necessarily be removed. Let's face it, I can stop changing it back but it'll never end because there are plenty of other like-minded people out there who will keep re-adding it since there's no way to prove or disprove either way. Like I suggested, let's keep it open-ended and instead of removing listings, just add information to to explain why some might not consider them Luigified.--Bman87301 22:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

"Playing the same way" has nothing to do with being Luigified. Ganondorf and Snake "play the same way" but they're totally different in move structuring. - Gargomon251 22:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

That's got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. I don't know who you think you're kidding. You know perfectly well that Ganondorf and Snake play nothing alike.--Bman87301 18:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Ganondorf

OK, we're talking about SSBB, yes? The non-Special attacks Ganondorf and C Falcon share are:

• All aerials except forward
• All Smashes except up
• Down and back throws
• Dash attack

That is all. The other moves only have superficial similarity, for example, both down tilts some type of kick. But they animate differently and have different properties. It's like comparing Link and Marth's Up-Smashes. Add in the Final Smashes and all the unique tilt attacks and they are as different as Mario and Luigi were in Melee. -Gargomon251 19:46, 15 April 2008 (UTC)