Talk:Birdo

Gender

Birdo's gender is clearly female. Regardless of whether she's still canonically trans or if she's been retconned to be born female, there is no source that says she is not female except for Brawl's trophy. TheNuttyOne 18:14, 20 May 2018 (EDT)

“	He thinks he is a girl and spits eggs from his mouth. He'd rather be called "birdetta."	”
—The Super Mario Bros. 2 manual

I rest my case. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 19:07, 20 May 2018 (EDT)

Yep, that's what would be called "transgender". In some websites, you can be verbally assaulted and/or banned for hate speech if you assert that that doesn't count.

But even if we for some reason decide to adopt a transphobic stance, that's a 30+-year-old statement and, with very few exceptions, every game since has consistently depicted her as female. She is considered a "woman of racing" in Mario Kart 8. In Captain Rainbow, she is proven to be female despite her appearance and voice. In her Mario Party 8 character bio, she is referred to with female pronouns. Popple (somewhat reluctantly, but still) calls her a "dame" in Superstar Saga and its remake. She's a "her" in her Mario Kart Wii trading card info. Heck, even Melee uses female pronouns despite Brawl's claims otherwise. And honestly, it wouldn't be the first piece of conflicting information in a Brawl trophy. TheNuttyOne 19:24, 20 May 2018 (EDT)

Problem is, it's that very conflicting information that prevents us from doing anything. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 20:09, 20 May 2018 (EDT)

To be fair, Nintendo changes their stances on subjects all the time. Two notable examples come to mind: Sheik's gender in Zelda and what Mario games are considered mainstream. A nearly 30 year old mention in an instruction manual shouldn't have as much influence as several other instances where Birdo is called a female. The Brawl trophy doesn't really matter either as Smash trophies are known to have erroneous descriptions and don't reflect the original devs thoughts anyways. Also, if we're to remain consistent with other wikis, then by default we should be officially calling her a female, as the Mario Wiki does. Pokebub (talk)

Even most of the games that call her male state that she would rather be called female. Brawl is the only game I'm aware of that ever indicates her gender is debatable. TheNuttyOne 22:20, 20 May 2018 (EDT)

As far as I'm concerned, we're nowhere close to having a clear answer from Nintendo, and since speculation is not permitted on the wiki, that means we must leave Birdo's gender as unknown for the time being. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 03:23, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

Except we do have a clear answer from Nintendo. SMB2 and Brawl were literally the only 2 games with mentions of Birdo being male. Every other game featuring Birdo classifies her as female. Pokebub (talk) 03:34, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

And many other games use neutral terms (such as SSB4, which avoids gender pronouns for it). Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 05:48, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

It's not the only trophy in Smash 4 not to use pronouns. Sheik's alt. trophy doesn't, nor does Ciela's or Malladus's, even though all three have clearly defined genders otherwise (okay, Sheik isn't the best example, but her normal trophy clearly uses feminine pronouns). We don't know why they didn't use a pronoun, so we can't use that as evidence. Lack of pronouns doesn't mean non-defined gender.

What "many other games" use gender neutral terms? I would think they would be listed in MarioWiki's "Gender" section, but Brawl is the only one there. TheNuttyOne 13:32, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

Again, if we're to remain consistent with the MarioWiki, then we should automatically go with female. Pokebub (talk) 16:24, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

So the current count:

FEMALE:

1. Mario Kart 8/Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
2. Captain Rainbow
3. Mario Party 8
4. Superstar Saga/Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions
5. Mario Kart Wii
6. Melee
7. Mario Superstar Baseball
8. Mario Kart: Double Dash!!
9. Super Mario Advance

MALE-TO-FEMALE TRANSGENDER:

1. Super Mario Bros. 2
2. Wario's Woods

NO PRONOUNS SPECIFIED:

1. Smash 4
2. Mario Party 9
3. Mario Party 7
4. Mario Super Sluggers

GENDERLESS/UNDETERMINABLE GENDER:

1. Brawl

...This seems pretty straightforward to me. TheNuttyOne 12:21, 22 May 2018 (EDT)

Would anyone else like to share/defend a counter-argument? TheNuttyOne 13:47, 24 May 2018 (EDT)

So am I safe to make the change, then? TheNuttyOne 16:47, 27 May 2018 (EDT)

Tell ya what pal, how about you have a quick read of SW:CONSENSUS and see if that answers your question. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 16:49, 27 May 2018 (EDT)

All counter-arguments have gone refuted and undefended. When I asked for someone to defend the counter-argument, no one spoke up. If you would like to defend or refute, please proceed.

To be honest, I had no intention on making the change, but I also have no intention of letting the discussion die because everyone's run out of arguments.

Also, watch the sarcasm. If we're bringing snarky statements into the debate, I guarantee I will outdo you. TheNuttyOne 16:56, 27 May 2018 (EDT)

Alright, first off, both of you take it easy before someone starts resorting to full-on personal attacks, it's starting to get a bit passive-aggressive in here. Second, I full-on oppose this change for the very reason that there is a lot of conflicting information across all of Birdo's appearances and the data across MarioWiki. Resorting to counting majority instances across the articles Birdo appears in does NOT solve this problem, and comes close to being ass-backwards logic. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 19:54, 27 May 2018 (EDT)

...I feel like your "ass-backwards" comment is strongly conflicting with your first sentence.

Also, you say there is a "lot of conflicting information", but no one has actually cited the supposed "multiple" games with conflicting information. The only game I'm aware of that conflicts is Brawl, and with 15 other games that don't conflict (lack of pronouns still means nothing and I'm sure that if I did more research than this conversation is worth, I could find instances in most of the games that don't use pronouns where they are used) and a track record of falsehoods (Kaptain K. Rool, anyone?), that's more likely to be an error than an actual conflict of information. Every other game calls her female or male-to-female transgender. Honestly, MarioWiki is usually 10x pickier than us so I fail to understand how this is good enough for them to call her female but not good enough for us. TheNuttyOne 21:50, 27 May 2018 (EDT)

So, if we all can't come to agree (despite clear evidence for her being female), shall we have a formal vote then? Pokebub (talk) 19:04, 31 May 2018 (EDT)

It's been over two months with no one actually citing evidence that her gender is unclear except for the one Brawl trophy. Can I please make the change now? TheNuttyOne 18:51, 8 August 2018 (EDT)

No, because nobody else has supported it. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 19:05, 8 August 2018 (EDT)