User talk:Toomai/On the order of things

I believe that Villager and Mii fighters (from the Animal Crossing and Smash Bros universes) should be placed before Little Mac because their universes were represented by stages in previous games (the logo denotes an established universe). Thus these are not Newcomer universes like Punch Out, but veteran ones. There should be a new Axiom to address this; when previously established universes (based on stages, not fighters) gain a playable character for the first time, those universes are placed before brand new universes. Thus the new order should be (Mii fighters (smash bros came out in 1999), Villager (animal crossing came out in 2001), then brand new universes like Punch out and Wii Fit). This is the only flaw I saw in this method, so please consider this and fix it.

- IGGY7735 —Preceding unsigned comment added by IGGY7735 (talk • contribs) 22:06, 23 June 2014 (EDT)

I agree that something's not right about a universe with only an Assist Trophy in Brawl (Punch-Out) coming before a universe with a stage in Brawl (Animal Crossing). But in my opinion, the order should be constructable without having to use that knowledge - it makes everything simpler in general when cross-game references are limited. I could consider it more, but at this point I don't think I'll be changing it. Toomai Glittershine The Prismatic 00:01, 24 June 2014 (EDT)

Shouldn't Lucina be next to Marth, like you did with the Links? 84.26.240.80 06:12, 16 August 2014 (EDT)

Your comment has caused me to realize I do a very poor job of defining what "similar characters" actually means. Does it mean the characters are clones or semi-clones within Smash Bros., or are closely-related in their home universes? Or both? The Mario group is "original, brother semi-clone, alt-version clone" and the Link group is "original, alt-version clone, alt-version semi-clone", so there's no debate there, but I need to draw the line somewhere for less-obvious groups. It'll probably be a judgement call no matter what I do, but I'll think about it, and Lucina will probably be moved. Toomai Glittershine The Glow 11:21, 16 August 2014 (EDT)

A few suggestions...

A couple of changes I'd suggest based on my own thought processes:

• I would think that sorting by game of introduction would be more important than sorting by clone or hero/villain status. For example, I'd sort the Mario characters Mario, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina. (You also seem to have done this anyways in some cases by leaving Pichu after Jigglypuff.)
• Even if the previous point isn't put into effect, Lucina should be after Roy since she's a later-introduced moveset clone of the same character (despite her other similarities to Marth).
• We also need a sorting order location for stage-only universes for things like stage list boxes. Does Find Mii or Tomodachi come first, for example?

Thoughts? Miles (talk) 14:37, 19 August 2014 (EDT)

I never really knew what to do with Pichu; in some of the earliest versions of the list he was between Pikachu and Jigglypuff, but by the time Brawl came around he was cemented after the two. He's a clone, but he's only related to Pikachu by being in the same evolution line, unlike the other such characters that are both clones and canonically blood relatives. He's also a "true neutral" in every sense (being effectively a wild Pokémon), and has no canon allegiance to anyone else (this is pretty much why all the Pokémon are ordered by game - there's no real priority otherwise).

I was considering the order Marth-Roy-Lucina, but in the end it just feels wrong to me to group two unrelated lords closer than two distant relatives.

I guess the takeaway from this is that I prioritize characters as characters, not as fighters. I don't really want to have to use knowledge of who's in what game to order things if it's not as a tiebreaker (hence why it's late in the axiom list).

I do have an non-published order for non-character universes, so I might as well see what I can do about adding it to this page. Toomai Glittershine The Incomperable 14:58, 19 August 2014 (EDT)

Brawl Character order

I was thinking of an order like:

1. Mario
2. Donkey Kong
3. Link
4. Samus/Zero Suit Samus
5. Yoshi
6. Kirby
7. Fox
8. Pikachu
9. Luigi
10. Captain Falcon
11. Ness
12. Bowser
13. Peach
14. Zelda/Sheik
15. Ice Climbers
16. Marth
17. Mr. Game & Watch
18. Falco
19. Ganondorf
20. Wario
21. Meta Knight
22. Pit
23. Olimar
24. Lucas
25. Diddy Kong
26. Pokémon Trainer
27. King Dedede
28. Ike
29. Lucario
30. R.O.B.
31. Jigglypuff
32. Toon Link
33. Wolf
34. Snake
35. Sonic

Where everyone is ordered according to their Brawl character ID. ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) is a never lover boy 20:53, 20 August 2014 (EDT)

There are issues with "in-game technical orders" like this that make them less-than-ideal.

1. Games might have multiple technical orders. Melee's debug mode character selector puts Zelda and Sheik in the middle, but on the disc's ROM they're near the front. Brawl has Jigglypuff late in the order you list, but not in the co-op event 21 order.
2. They're not all-encompassing for the series as a whole. For example, where does Dr. Mario fit in this list?
3. They may be completely nonsensical to non-technical people.

Toomai Glittershine Le Grand Fromage 21:09, 20 August 2014 (EDT)