User talk:67.242.0.68

Top level

Hey, I am not the one who has been reverting your edits, but I have noticed what was going on in Professor Pro's page. First, if your edit is reverted you should bring the conversation to the talk page, as subsequent reversions would lead to an edit war, which goes against our policies.

Second, in regards to the "top level" skill level, this was a rather recent change made by the wiki to update our previous skill level system, which many users had considered to be both outdated and rather in accurate. Namely, the "top professional" skill level was often just thrown around to anyone who performed well at majors or were ranked on a global ranking. Many users believed that even with that distinction, there should still be something that distinguishes those that often make it really far in majors from those that can actually win majors, or are actual threats to do so. Thus, following an update to our policy the "top professional" skill level has effectively split into "top professional" into "top level" and "upper high level". The new system is documented here.

In regards to Professor Pro, looking through his career, he is certainly a really good player, especially if he is ranked on an all-time ranking. However he does not seem like a legitimate threat at taking majors: out of the 23 majors he has attended, he has only made top 8 at 3 of them, and none of them were supermajors. That is the reason as to why NPM has changed Professor Pro's skill level to "upper high level": it is not to disregard or diminish his achievements, but to more accurately categorize him as a really good player who isn't on the same tier as someone like Hungrybox, Zain, or even moky (who despite still lacking a major win is certainly a contender for taking one based off his resume in 2023).

I hope this clears up any miscommunication from our end as to why your edits continuously get reverted. If you still disagree with us, please do not keep reverting the edit, but bring it up on the talk page (or rather here, now that the subject has been brought here instead). CookiesCreme 22:24, January 21, 2024 (EST)

- Hi, thanks for clarifying the system. Around 20 or so players have won a Melee major in the first place, so it is disingenuous/statistically flawed to primarily rely on that metric when assessing the skill levels of Melee players. Furthermore, everyone in the recent all-time top 100 list has (rightfully) been labeled "top level", up until this sudden change. Professor Pro being tabulated in this list alone verifies that he is among the "best of the best" across Melee's entire history. While I am sure the intention is not to disregard/diminish his achievements, this is ultimately what changing his labeled skill level does for the average wiki reader. I am unsure why his skill level of all people in this list was arbitrarily changed when this is evidently inconsistent with everyone else he is ranked alongside/above (which includes moky, who is also rightfully a "top level" player).

I implore you to trust the judgment of seasoned Melee statisticians and historians, and kindly revert the change, as "upper high level" is an inaccurate indicator of Professor Pro's skill level in the grand scheme of his career. 45.47.110.137 00:09, January 22, 2024 (EST)

Just a few things I would like to point out:

"Around 20 or so players have won a Melee major in the first place"

Which is why we need something to separate those who can and those who can't. Again, "top level" is the term the wiki uses to denote those who can or have win majors. You cannot say that peak Professor Pro, who has 3 top 8s at majors, is on the same skill level as peak aMSa, who had 3 major/supermajor wins.

"Furthermore, everyone in the recent all-time top 100 list has (rightfully) been labeled "top level", up until this sudden change"

"I am unsure why his skill level of all people in this list was arbitrarily changed when this is evidently inconsistent with everyone else he is ranked alongside/above"

Another thing I should point out is that the wiki is still working on properly change the skill levels of all players to realign with our new system. As such, there are going to be players who don't meet our "top level" critera who are listed as such, and those should be changed. This is also not a sudden change; it has been discussed extensively for a year before it was implemented, both on the wiki and in our Discord.

In addition, a flaw with using the list is that it only goes up to 2021. That is why moky is ranked so low: he really only became a top 20 player (heck even solid top 50 player, since he was only fringe-top 50 in 2018) in 2019, and that was the last ranking before the list was created. As such the statisticians judged moky's performances from the start of his career to 2021... and 2020/2021 did not have too much since offline play was cut short/just starting to return, respectively. Since then moky has established himself as top 10 player who has a chance at being top 5, so he is clearly going to rise a lot from his 71st position if a future list is made.

"Professor Pro being tabulated in this list alone verifies that he is among the "best of the best" across Melee's entire history"

Except being the 67th best isn't being the "best of the best" if there are 66 players better than him. "best of the best" implies those in the top 5 on the all-time list since those are the players that have some argument for "greatest Melee player of all-time". Yes, Melee's competitive history has been filled with tens of thousands of players, but again how many of those tens of thousands of players have won even a single major? Not even half of the all-time top 100 list has that achievement, and I have to reiterate that the wiki's "top level" means anyone who have or could win majors.

I trust the statisticians made the right list for their top 100 but the list does should not be seen as a "these are all the GOATs", which is what I am getting from your comments. Rather it should be treated as exactly what it is: a "top 100 Melee players of all time" list.

"While I am sure the intention is not to disregard/diminish his achievements, this is ultimately what changing his labeled skill level does for the average wiki reader."

Yet it is disingenuous to keep "top level" for Professor Pro if he is not on the level of other players who should have "top level". However, I do admit that "upper high level" is not the best term to call the skill level since it does not properly convey how good the player actually is. This is likely something that we will change in the near future since it seemed to be a somewhat reoccurring issue with our skill system change.

I think I can sum it up like this: your (and I guess to a certain extent the statisticians) definition of "top level" encompasses the wiki's definition of "top level" and "upper high level" in that these are the players who regularly place in the top 100. The all-time top 100 list is also meant to list out the best 100 players of competitive Melee, however not everyone on the list is necessarily of equal skill level. You cannot say #100 (AbsentPage) is same in skill level as #1 (Mango) because that just isn't true. I know I've probably repeated that many times but that is the exact distinction that we are trying to make on the wiki. There needs to be some distinction between those who can or did win majors (Mango) and those who are consistent top 100 players but do not have a lot of results that even come close to winning majors (AbsentPage), and as such the "judgment of seasoned Melee statisticians and historians", while certainly trustworthy, is largely irrelevant in this case. CookiesCreme 01:52, January 22, 2024 (EST)