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| This says in Brawl and Smash 4 that gravity makes fighters take '''more''' vertical knockback, but says that Fox takes less knockback because he has higher gravity. I'm sure he '''does take less''' vertical knockback: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3x5ib0/clouds_finishing_touch_kill_percents/ -- [[User:Ethan7|<span style="color:#000f55;font-family:Cursive;font-style:italic">Ethan</span>]] <small>''([[User talk:Ethan7|<span style="color:Blue">Discussion</span>]])''</small> 11:59, 23 January 2016 (EST) | | This says in Brawl and Smash 4 that gravity makes fighters take '''more''' vertical knockback, but says that Fox takes less knockback because he has higher gravity. I'm sure he '''does take less''' vertical knockback: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3x5ib0/clouds_finishing_touch_kill_percents/ -- [[User:Ethan7|<span style="color:#000f55;font-family:Cursive;font-style:italic">Ethan</span>]] <small>''([[User talk:Ethan7|<span style="color:Blue">Discussion</span>]])''</small> 11:59, 23 January 2016 (EST) |
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| == Gravity penalty from vertical angles == | | == Gravity penalty from vertical knockback == |
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| In ''Ultimate'', fighters have different gravity values when launched at between 70°-110°. When sent into tumbling, does the gravity penalty formula still applies from those values? [[User:Juju1995|Juju1995]] ([[User talk:Juju1995|talk]]) 19:40, May 15, 2021 (EDT) | | In ''Ultimate'', fighters have different gravity values when launched between 70°-110°. When sent into tumbling, does the gravity penalty formula still applies from those values? [[User:Juju1995|Juju1995]] ([[User talk:Juju1995|talk]]) 19:40, May 15, 2021 (EDT) |
| :Yes, it uses the altered values for those angles. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 20:02, May 15, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::I've tested to see how horizontal launch speed decays by using Yoshi's Egg Throw (which deals 6%, has a launch angle of 70°, BKB of 60 and KBS of 50) on Bowser at 815% and Pichu at 560% (so that they both receive roughly 264 KB) on the Training stage due to having the highest and lowest vertical gravity, respectively. And my theory is, regardless of their gravity, they both stopped roughly on the same spot. But I'm just guessing. [[User:Juju1995|Juju1995]] ([[User talk:Juju1995|talk]]) 02:21, July 15, 2021 (EDT)
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| :::That doesn't surprise me, the difference in GravPen for vertical knockback is quite small, and the effect of GravPen on horizontal launch speed decay depends on how much it changes the initial launch angle by, which at high angles will not be by very much. This situation is effectively GravPen actually working the way it was intended to, especially given that fall speed is not a variable. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 12:35, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::::I have one more theory to point out. According to Ruben's ''Ultimate'' calculator, the GravPen doesn't show up in the knockback session when launched at the aforementioned angles, so I assume the GravPen doesn't apply to said angles. Even Rubin messaged to me about it, explaining that it doesn't use it. [[User:Juju1995|Juju1995]] ([[User talk:Juju1995|talk]]) 09:47, July 22, 2021 (EDT)
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| :::::This appears to be correct. Using the following setup, I was able to show, hopefully fairly conclusively, that GravPen is not applied for these angles:
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| :::::*Cloud custom balance -3
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| :::::*Cloud and opponent have defense ↑ attack ↓ level 99 Absolutely Safe Capsules
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| :::::*Finishing Touch fully staled
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| :::::*Xerneas knockback buff active
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| :::::The result is a move which deals less than 0.1% damage, making p in the knockback formula, and subsequently weight, effectively irrelevant, so the only variable now is GravPen. Despite this, both Pichu and Bowser are launched to the exact same horizontal point. While GravPen's effect would be weak here, it would not be negligible given the setup, so evidently it either wasn't applied, or is treated as the same for both. Images can be found [https://twitter.com/Examinee623/status/1418304081823555585 here]. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 16:28, July 22, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::::::There's also one more thing that I've found out. I think the disabling GravPen for vertical knockback also affects their vertical endurance. For example, on the Training stage, while receiving roughly 255 KB when launched at 90° would usually KO Bowser sooner and Pichu later, it's actually the opposite; KOs Bowser later and Pichu sooner. [[User:Juju1995|Juju1995]] ([[User talk:Juju1995|talk]]) 17:13, July 22, 2021 (EDT)
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| :::::::Yes, that's how that would work. While both of their fall speeds during hitstun will cap out at 1.8, Bowser will reach that fall speed a little bit sooner than Pichu, so would need slightly more knockback to be KOd, whereas with GravPen active, this effect would be overridden and Pichu would need slightly more knockback to be KOd. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 05:40, July 23, 2021 (EDT)
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| == Gravity penalty from vertical angles (cont.) ==
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| Using Jigglypuff, I was able to test my theory that the GravPen is not affected by moves that launch at between 70°-110°.
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| I experimented this during Training Mode, by using its up throw on Bowser and Pichu, both at 0%, first by grabbing them and summoning a Super Star, so that they both receive exactly 135.4 KB because both p and d are not factored into the knockback formula while they're invincible. And by enabling the Trajectory Guide option, when used on Bowser, he is launched slightly lower than when used on Pichu, due to his high vertical gravity, according to the 0% red line. [[User:Juju1995|Juju1995]] ([[User talk:Juju1995|talk]]) 09:54, June 14, 2022 (EDT)
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| :You need to let this go. It's already been proven that GravPen is not active for these angles. Repeatedly extending the discussion without adding anything of merit is not productive. Also, never use throws to try and test GravPen, release heights are inconsistent between fighters, even from the same throw. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 10:05, June 14, 2022 (EDT)
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