User talk:Toomai/Moveset tables in progress

this is very nice. hurry up with bowser's please XD Paper Bowser (talk) 22:20, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Wow. My only major complaint is the somewhat informal style of the descriptions. Otherwise, though, nice work. (You might want to make the pictures have a description of the type of attack, like your matchup icons did.) Miles (talk) 23:09, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

The pictures will have captions; I just don't want to make them into templates yet. (Using a template with only the image and its caption prevents one of the image's captions from having an error or something.) And yes, the descriptions are informal. I'm not really putting any work into them; they're just placeholders while I do the "real" work. Toomai Glittershine The Table Designer 02:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Minor question. If F.L.U.D.D. doesn't do any damage, do stickers affect it all? If not, can it really be classified by sticker type? Just wondering. Miles (talk) 22:26, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, FLUDD probably isn't affected by stickers (if only because Mario can't wear Water stickers). But it may deal extra knockback to Charizard, and that would cause it to be Water. (However, it may be impossible to get a conclusive test.) Toomai Glittershine The Stats Guy 23:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Pokemon don't have weaknesses in this game, and almost every attack has multiple types. PK Fire is [Fire] and [PK] AND [Specials:Indirect] There's a whole faq for this on gamefaqs already... - Gargomon251 (talk) 01:48, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I know many attacks have multiple types. But I'm guessing that, because Mario can't boost FLUDD with Water, Special:Indirect won't do much either. It will be tested, though.

As for PT's Pokemon...from what I've heard, they take 1.1x knockback when an attack is super effective, and 0.9x when it's not very effective. I'm guessing this only applies to the Fire-Grass-Water triangle, but it's still significant. Toomai Glittershine The Table Designer 02:31, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Heard from whom? There's been extensive testing by many people, and I could have sworn that had been debunked- Gargomon251 (talk) 02:59, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

If you want to get some data yourself:

I'm the kind of guy who likes to do everything on his own. However, conducting damage, type, and knockback research on almost 1000 moves is probably not a one-man job. So, here's what to do if you want to contribute data.

Note: If you can hack out the exact data from the game, huzzah! It would save tons of work. I have no idea if it's possible, though. (There's always the hope...)

Damage

Yes, damage values are everywhere. But I check them all myself (in Training Mode to avoid SMN and using 1/4 speed on fast attacks). And some aren't listed, such as floor attacks. I require the damage done by every hitbox of a move. And that means EVERY one - so Marth will have pretty much two complete lists (one tippered, one not). I don't frequent SmashBoards, so I don't know how comprehensive damages are listed there - if there's free data over there, just point it out.

Angle

Basically, the direction the enemy gets sent flying. Easy to test - go to Training Mode, pump it up to 999%, and mark the line of the smoke trail. (1/4 speed highly recommended.) I report the values as such - an attack with an angle of 0 sends the opponent completely horizontal and a 90 is completely upwards. Negative values send people downwards, so test Meteor Smashes and the like on aerial enemies. A "b" (such as 70b) designates that the enemy flies the "wrong way" - instead of flying away from the attacker, the enemy flies past the attacker (and then away, of course). I need an angle for each hitbox.

Type

Does the Mario Tornado do Leg damage, or just Spin (if even that)? It should be simple to test (I haven't done this myself yet, I'm still nailing down the knockback values currently). First, attack an enemy with the move and count how long it take to die. Then slap on a sticker and see if the move does more damage. If it does, the move is of the sticker's type. (Of course, this must be done for each hitbox.)

Knockback

This one is a pain. Use an Angled Special Brawl if you don't want your stats to inflate - this can't be done in Training Mode. Turn Handicaps on and set one guy to the testing character and the rest to Mario (however many you can deal with at once). Set the Mario to the following percentages: 0%, 100%, 200%, and 300%. (Obviously, you can't do all these at once.) Go to Battlefield since there's soft platforms and no hazards.

Now then. Hit the Mario(s) with the testing attack. Then quit the match. Under the match results you'll see "Max Launch Speed". (Ignore "Max Launcher Speed", you don't need it.) Since you only hit each Mario with one attack, this is the knockback that one attack did. For example, if the 200% Mario has a Max Launch Speed of 4910 (ignore the meaningless "mph" units), that means the move did 4910 units of knockback at 200%. Once the testing is done, you'll have four values - the knockbacks the move did at 0%, 100%, 200%, and 300%. Mark down which hitbox the numbers match up with and I'll do the rest.

Sound tough? It gets worse. To test the 100%+ edge attack, you'll have to set the testing character to above 100%. To test floor attacks, you'll need to have the testing character lay down somehow. Either hit him with the dummies or have him carry something big off an edge. You may need to try different things to get both the facedown and faceup attacks tested. For trip attacks, you may want to use Bananas. The good news is, I have reason to believe that both sides (front and back) of a single floor attack are identical. Don't take my word for it, though.

For smash attacks, mark down the values for one that's not charged and one that's fully charged. As for other chargable moves, I've heard that not all of them charge knockback at a predictable rate (such as the Giant Punch). You may have to make a ton of tests for each level of charge (I sure hope not).

Finally, for multi-hit attacks, you have to test the middle hitboxes without connecting with the earlier ones. And shielding, from my experience, alters the numbers somewhat. So you'll have to either dodge precisely or activate the move at just the right height. (The first hitbox is easy enough, just have it connect and then quit the match. Although you have to make sure the hitstun ends first, you may want to use a Timer on the attacker for that.) Luckily, most multi-hit moves have a bunch of identical hitboxes, so you won't have to test every one if they all do the same damage. While I'm not prevented form using data that involves previous hitboxes connecting, you would have to be 100% sure which hitboxes connected and how much damage they do, including any SMN. And no matter what knockback data is collected, there has to be one at 0%.

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