Editing Talk:Weight

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== How can I test the weight of each character? ==

I know one way is how long it takes a character to throw another character (i.e. it takes longer for Mario to back-throw Jigglypuff than Bowser), but how do I test it knockback-wise? Any attacks I can use, and what stage can I use them on? <font face="Eurostile" size="3">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#00008B">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font><sup>([[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|Talk]])</sup> 14:12, 17 May 2012 (EDT)
:In Melee, by the way. <font face="Eurostile" size="3">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#00008B">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font><sup>([[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|Talk]])</sup> 14:12, 17 May 2012 (EDT)
::While knockback can give you a strong idea of how much a character weighs, it's not completely accurate. [[Gravity]] plays a small role in how much knockback a character sustains, and is the reason why Fox, despite being heavier, sustains more knockback than some characters lighter than him. In Melee, a simple way to measure a character's weight ingame would be to go to [[Mushroom Kingdom (SSBM)|Mushroom Kingdom]], and have a character on each scale platform. The scale that falls faster has the heavier character, and neither scale falling indicates equal weight. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 14:47, 17 May 2012 (EDT)
:::I do not believe gravity affects knockback in Melee, though I have done no testing on it.
:::Incidentally I don't really know why BNK feels like testing this on his own, considering that the values on the page have been known for years. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Zesty 14:58, 17 May 2012 (EDT)
::::Thanks OT, and Toomai, I was curious, especially after testing C. Falcon's up throw on characters at the temple. Pikachu whose falling speed is only average when compared to other light fast-fallers like Fox and Falco, doesn't get star KO'd when hit on the far right at the lowest level, but Samus, a much heavier (and floatier) character, does. Falling speed appears to have a great effect on upward knockback, much more in Melee than in Brawl. But as OT said, gravity is a factor, I'm just not sure how to tie it into an equation. But I will try the weight thing at Mushroom Kingdom. <font face="Eurostile" size="3">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#00008B">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font><sup>([[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|Talk]])</sup> 16:00, 17 May 2012 (EDT)
:::::Falling speed does indeed have a greater impact on vertical endurance in Melee than it does in Brawl. Also, with up throws in Melee, falling speed is the primary factor, which is why Pikachu is surviving Falcon's up throw longer than Samus'. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 16:15, 17 May 2012 (EDT)

== Possible formula for weight ==

The scenario involves a damage ratio of 2, 300% damage, and a blast box.

M/K*100=Weight

M is the max launch speed Mario takes.

K is the max launch speed a character takes.

Let's see if the formula works. <font face="Arial">[[User:ShupaRoeh|<font color="red">Shu</font><font color="green">pa]][[User Talk:ShupaRoeh|</font><font color="blue">Roeh</font></font>]][[File:TypicalGuy.png|19px]] 15:10, 18 June 2012 (EDT)
:...um? I don't wish to be rude, but whatever you're trying to say is so out in left field that I'm wondering if you even read the page. We already have the exact, in-game values for every character in every game (expect for certain versions of SSB64); no knockback-based testing can make our data any more accurate. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Spark 18:18, 18 June 2012 (EDT)
::If a character is half as heavy as another character, they take twice as many knockback as the latter character. I hope this proved my point. <font face="Arial">[[User:ShupaRoeh|<font color="red">Shu</font><font color="green">pa]][[User Talk:ShupaRoeh|</font><font color="blue">Roeh</font></font>]][[File:TypicalGuy.png|19px]] 18:47, 18 June 2012 (EDT)
:::It proves nothing really. In addition, trying to use knockback as the indicator of how much a character weighs is inaccurate. <span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|19px|:p]] 18:55, 18 June 2012 (EDT)
::You are making an assumption that "half weight = double knockback", when in fact it is very likely that such is not true in the majority of cases due to the effect of gravity and the additive factor of base knockback. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Victorious 18:56, 18 June 2012 (EDT)
:::Well of course I acknowledge gravity as increasing knockback. Max launch speed taken from upwards knockback is what I mean, since launch speed from launching upwards is not affected by gravity. It may confuse you though. <font face="Arial">[[User:ShupaRoeh|<font color="red">Shu</font><font color="green">pa]][[User Talk:ShupaRoeh|</font><font color="blue">Roeh</font></font>]][[File:TypicalGuy.png|19px]] 23:07, 18 June 2012 (EDT)
::::I don't see what your point with all this is. We already know almost everything there is to know about weight. If you want to discuss knockback, then go to that talk page. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Awesome 23:16, 18 June 2012 (EDT)

==Horizontal Knockback==
Why does the description say that weight is how far a character can be ''horizontally'' knocked back? Does the weight attribute not factor into vertical knockback? I know it's a video game, but resistance to force doesn't apply in one direction. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Quilt|Quilt]] ([[User talk:Quilt|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Quilt|contribs]]) 09:23, 30 August 2013 (EDT)</small>
:Yeah that sentence could use improvement. I think the idea was to get across that vertical knockback is also affected by gravity and possibly falling speed. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Engineer 17:49, 30 August 2013 (EDT)
::An easy way to understand weight is to think of it as knockback resistance, since that's all it really does afaik. Falling speed indeed alters the vertical velocity. I made myself a calculator so that I could better understand the physics for the game, although it's not fully complete. Some things are complicated like spiking enemies who are on the ground. Also Sakurai angle seems a bit weird, because the knockback deceleration changes slightly. Next, I'll prolly make a calculator for jumping physics. I already got most of the info down for that, except for Up B moves. I thought it was interesting how if you run while jumping and press Up to jump, you jump at the full height. [[User:Madao|Madao]] ([[User talk:Madao|talk]]) 22:42, 30 August 2013 (EDT)
:::Did you post this in the wrong section? :P --[[User:Quilt|Quilt]] ([[User talk:Quilt|talk]]) 02:45, 31 August 2013 (EDT)
::::Nah lol I just have a habit of going off topic in the middle of my posts sometimes.[[User:Madao|Madao]] ([[User talk:Madao|talk]]) 06:53, 31 August 2013 (EDT)

==Pictures/Video==
I think this page could use some animations to substantiate what is in the overview, especially demonstrating the animation length differences between heavy and light characters. Also, I think "''In each game, the [[enemy team]] will all have the same weight as Mario, despite each being based off characters of different weights.''" in the notes needs to be given some appropriate context. --[[User:Quilt|Quilt]] ([[User talk:Quilt|talk]]) 04:06, 31 August 2013 (EDT)

==How language has been used in this article==
The opening sentence for the paragraph describing advantages light characters have was changed from "Light character have some advantages," to "Light character also have some advantages." The original sentence was intended to reflect that "it is usually considered an advantage for characters to be heavy," as stated previously, that is, being heavy often have many and more significant advantages over being light. I changed it to "Lighter characters have a few advantages," to help clarify that light characters are still not without some advantages.

Stating that "In general, heavy characters tend to have..." is redundant, specifically using both "in general" and "tend." In general, heavy characters tend to (X), as opposed to what? In a few specific cases, heavy characters tend to (X)? "In general" and "tend" both imply that something occurs regularly. I think making mistakes like this under peer review is okay, I make bad mistakes all the time. But I still think it's weird to reintroduce mistakes, lol. --[[User:Quilt|Quilt]] ([[User talk:Quilt|talk]]) 09:33, 3 September 2013 (EDT)

== Mewtwo weighs how much? ==

The list says it's the second lightest character in the game. Is there any proof of this? It feels heavier than Rosalina. <font face="X-Files">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> 12:53, 16 April 2015 (EDT)
:His weight was measured to be approximately 72 in the weight rankings thread in SmashBoards. If Mewtwo and Mr. Game & Watch are on the separate platforms in the Garden of Hope stage, then Mr. Game & Watch would cause the platform that he is standing on to fall. I wasn't sure about whether 72 is the exact value, though, so I left it blank. [[User:LimitCrown|LimitCrown]] ([[User talk:LimitCrown|talk]]) 13:27, 16 April 2015 (EDT)  

'''Windindi's Edit:''' @Blue Ninjakoopa, to answer your question, Mewtwo's weight according to Eventhubs is literally: 0. But I think that could change.
http://www.eventhubs.com/moves/ssb4/mewtwo/ -Link
I actually noticed that Mewtwo's weight changes if he's on the ground or not, ether that, or it's just me.

== Middleweight or heavyweight? ==

Are Falcon and Link best considered as middle or heavyweights? Both are tied for weighing 104 units. - [[User:Drilly Dilly|Drilly Dilly]] ([[User talk:Drilly Dilly|talk]]) 17:28, 7 August 2015 (EDT)
:Depends how you define the categories. There's no official cut-off between the two labels or anything. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 17:37, 7 August 2015 (EDT)
::Understood. What do you think the majority of people refer to the them as (I refer to them by the latter)? - [[User:Drilly Dilly|Drilly Dilly]] ([[User talk:Drilly Dilly|talk]]) 18:02, 7 August 2015 (EDT)

== 97 ==

...is somehow the Villager's weight. How is he heavier than people like Pac-Man or Marth? He's probably heavier than both Corrin and Bayonetta [[User:KirbysCrazyAppetite|Kirby's Crazy Appetite]] ~ [[File:KirbyHeadYellowSSB.png|50x20px]] 15:47, 4 February 2016 (EST)
:Anyone going to test Corrin yet? I don't have the DLC right now [[User:KirbysCrazyAppetite|Kirby's Crazy Appetite]] ~ [[File:KirbyHeadYellowSSB.png|50x20px]] 06:42, 5 February 2016 (EST)
::I'll get to that this afternoon after college. After all, I'm the one who found out how much Bayonetta weighed (which is 88, 1 unit below Peach). <font face="Papyrus">[[User:15DollarsWentSouth|<span style="color: darkblue;">'''15DollarsWentSouth'''</span>]]</font> 08:37, 5 February 2016 (EST)

== Trivia: Flawed(?) reason of Female Wire Frame's weight ==

The trivia currently states:<br>
"However, one exception applies to the Female Wire Frame in Melee, who has a weight of 90. This is due to the development team copying Zelda's moveset over to the Female Wire Frame"<br>
The issue I have with this is that the [[Fighting Wire Frames]] characters are based on Captain Falcon and Zelda. CF has a weight of 104 and Zelda has a weight of 90. So if the female character has a weight of 90 due to copying Zelda's moveset, then that would mean that the male character has a weight of 104, which isn't true according to the trivia point above, stating they all have the weight of 100/98. So it's rather due to the development team possibly forgetting to reset the value to Mario's value for the female character unlike the male character, and all other [[enemy team]] characters.<br>
[[User:Liggliluff|Liggliluff]] ([[User talk:Liggliluff|talk]]) 07:52, 11 August 2018 (EDT)

== Are we sure the Super Mushroom modifies weight? ==

On [[Talk:Super Mushroom|the talk page for the Super Mushroom]], [[User:Trainer Alex|Trainer Alex]] mentioned that [[Talk:Super Mushroom#Knockback resistance, not weight change (proof from testing)|he had tested]] the [[Super Mushroom]]'s effects and found that it does not modify the [[frame speed multiplier]] of weight-sensitive throws, but does modify knockback received from high base-knockback moves like Ness's forward throw at 0% (for some reason, weight does nothing to base knockback), and also modifies knockback recieved from weight-ignoring moves such as Cloud's [[Finishing Touch]]. From this, he concluded that the Super Mushroom increases [[knockback resistance]], not weight (and likewise that the [[Poison Mushroom]] reduces knockback resistance, not weight). Now, I'm quite sure that there are other effects weight has outside of knockback — weight-sensitive [[platform]]s being the one that immediately comes to mind — and those never came up in the tests mentioned on the talk page. Plus, the whole "Finishing Touch survival" thing could also be explained by increased [[fall speed]], which is another effect of the Super Mushroom. Can we do some more testing to determine whether or not the Super Mushroom, Poison Mushroom, and [[Metal Box]] actually do affect weight, and not just other knockback modifiers such as knockback resistance, fall speed, and [[gravity]]? --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 15:25, 28 August 2018 (EDT)
:Regarding those tests, the oversight I made was that I assumed that weight dependant throws would be bound by temporary weight modifiers, when as it turns out they are not, and they simply use the character's base weight. However the scales on [[Garden of Hope]] are bound by weight modifiers, and demonstrate that all 3 of the above items '''''are''''' also modifying weight. The other two tests on that talk page do confirm that launch rate modifiers are also used, but say nothing about weight modifiers. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 17:56, 28 August 2018 (EDT)

== Weight and size KO differences ==

In ''Ultimate'', vertical KOs are now not only based on a fighter's weight (and, to a lesser extent, gravity), but also their size. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH7IDQ_8vic&t=208s In this video], which shows what percentage Greninja's down taunt can KO, Ganondorf and Incineroar both get KO'd at 652%, despite the latter being only 2 units lighter than the former, and Charizard at 660%, despite being only 2 units lighter than Ganondorf, and weighing the same as its fellow Pokémon. [[User:Juju1995|Juju1995]] ([[User talk:Juju1995|talk]]) 10:34, January 24, 2022 (EST)
:This is actually something fairly interesting. Hitstun animations are known to affect KO percents off the top. For example, moves with high launch angles outside the 70-110 range can cause the spin reel hitstun animation, which will result in the victim being able to survive longer. The reason for this is because most hitstun animations cause the victim to drift upwards, shifting where the game considers them to be, relative to the blast zone. The spin reel animation has no upward drift at all. In the case of Ganondorf, his vertical hitstun animation has severe upward drift (see [https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/350063361901199361/935342165075320842/IMG_4766.jpg here]). This will result in him dying earlier off the top than expected for his weight. This issue is exacerbated by Greninja's down taunt having very little knockback growth. This means the launch distance change per percent is much smaller, and thus the effect of hitstun animations on KO percent will be amplified.

:Being larger probably doesn't help (I don't know exactly how much of the fighter has to cross the blast line for a KO to occur), but hitstun animations probably have more to do with the effect you're seeing. There's no real way to quantify this effect, as it changes on a move by move basis due to differences in launch angle and knockback growth, but the effect can be shown qualitatively. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 20:25, January 24, 2022 (EST)
::That was my next suggestion. So his environmental collision box (or ECB) is stretched more upward during his DamageFlyTop animation, thus making him more likely to be KO'd vertically. Maybe that's why the player cursor is placed much higher. [[User:Juju1995|Juju1995]] ([[User talk:Juju1995|talk]]) 22:44, January 24, 2022 (EST)
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