Editing Talk:Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

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{{notice|This talk page is to discuss '''the content of the article we have on ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate''''', ''not to discuss ''Ultimate'' itself''. Read [[SW:TALK|our talk page policy]] before commenting on here, specifically:
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If you want to discuss ''Ultimate'', take it to the [[Forum:Index|forums]]. This talk page is only for discussing the content of our article.}}

== Character infobox cleanup ==

Exactly how does the infoboxes need a cleanup? It's just showcasing every fighter in the game  with no typos or anything actually needing a cleanup.<span style="font-family: Algerian; font-size:12pt"> '''[[User: supatoad64|<span style="color:dodgerblue;"> Supa </span>]] [[User talk: supatoad64|<span style="color:dodgerblue;"> Toad 64 </span>]]''' </span> [[ Image: MK64ToadCSP.jpg|20px  ]] 00:57, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
:The cleanup is likely referring to the section itself, rather than the template; that said, even I'm not sure why it's there. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 00:59, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

== Pokemon Trainer counted twice? ==

I noticed that it was listed that there are "65 veterans (67 with PKMN Trainer), 11 newcomers in base, and 6 DLC". Yet, when you look at the image of the roster, there are only 63 spots when taking out the DLC characters and Random space. The total number given after (74/76 in base and 80/82 with DLC) is correct, however if it's 65/67 veterans with 11 newcomers, it would be 76/78 total in base and 72/74 with DLC. This is all, of course, counting the 3 Miis as separate. I think someone changed the number based on the table which says there are 65 veterans, which would be counting the PKMN Trainer as 3 and not 1. I figured I'd bring it up in here because I didn't want to risk getting in trouble for changing something without bringing it up first. [[User:Silva|Silva]] ([[User talk:Silva|talk]]) 10:07, July 28, 2019 (EDT)
:I see you are right about this mistake, so I'm changing it right now. For future references don't be afraid to edit something you know is a mistake, we are all in this together to make this wiki a reliable plase for smash information. After all why would anyone get in trouble for fixing incorrect information?<span style="font-family: Algerian; font-size:12pt"> '''[[User: supatoad64|<span style="color:dodgerblue;"> Supa </span>]] [[User talk: supatoad64|<span style="color:dodgerblue;"> Toad 64 </span>]]''' </span> [[ Image: MK64ToadCSP.jpg|20px  ]] 04:18, July 29, 2019 (EDT)
::Um, aren't Lucina and Dark Pit counted towards that 65 total, though? I think the problem is that you're both looking at it through the fighter numbers in ''Ultimate'' rather than counting how many veterans there actually are, since neither has there own number but instead share one with their base fighters but with an epsilon. [[User:SuperSmashTurtles|SuperSmashTurtles]] ([[User talk:SuperSmashTurtles|talk]]) 04:38, July 29, 2019 (EDT)
:::No, see this is all based on math I did using the image of the roster we have on the page. There are 5 rows of 13 and 9 in the bottom row that aren't DLC or the Random space. With that, we get (13*5)+9, which adds up to the 74 non-DLC character slots. Simply taking out the 11 newcomers brings the number down to 63. Wasn't using fighter numbers, so there's really no issue in that. [[User:Silva|Silva]] ([[User talk:Silva|talk]]) 06:28, July 29, 2019 (EDT)
::::Ah, shoot! I was using Bayonetta's number (63) as the starting point for counting the total number of veterans, then added Lucina and Dark Pit, but I must have counted the Pokémon Trainer as a single fighter when I was doing so, so that probably made me think it was 67 when I separated their Pokémon. I wrote my discussion piece at, like, 1 AM, so that's probably why I screwed up. I am so sorry for all this. [[User:SuperSmashTurtles|SuperSmashTurtles]] ([[User talk:SuperSmashTurtles|talk]]) 19:49, July 29, 2019 (EDT)

==Switch is not a handheld==
Nintendo has stated multiple times that, first and foremost, the Switch is a home console (even if they haven't, [https://www.imore.com/every-nintendo-switch-game-doesnt-support-handheld-mode there are certain games that don't run under handheld mode or aren't very compatible with it], making it pretty obvious that the Switch had a console idea in mind). While the upcoming Switch Lite is a handheld, the Switch Lite is similar to the 2DS: it isn't the main console of the generation, but a reworked version of it, and we generally only focus on the main handheld. The trivia talking about the Switch as a handheld, therefore, is invalid. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 21:23, August 23, 2019 (EDT)
:To be fair, the Switch is more designed as a hybrid of a handheld and home console and so that is why the trivia point was originally there by the anonymous user. Ultimate is also compatible in handheld mode so in a way Ultimate is also a portable Smash game, so it was more of a good-faith misunderstanding.

:That said, the Switch's primary focus is to be a home console, not a handheld, and the handheld mode is more of an extra feature so you're right the trivia point is not needed.<span style="font-family: Algerian"> '''[[User: supatoad64|<span style="color:blue;"> Supα Toαd 64,</span>]] [[User talk: supatoad64|<span style="color:aqua;"> The Best </span>]]''' </span> [[ Image: MK64ToadCSP.jpg|20px ]] 20:34, August 26, 2019 (EDT)

I feel the switch can be used for either, and that its primary focus is both. Either way, it doesn't matter. [[User:Coolben|Coolben]] ([[User talk:Coolben|talk]]) 15:50, October 25, 2019 (EDT)Coolben

== SSBU Character Table-Newcomer Character Count ==

I'm sorry, but I really don't like how the (>17) looks when counting off the newcomers, knowing what we know in regards to the DLC being released for ''Ultimate''. I really feel like it should state there are 16 newcomers, as of September 27, 2019, as that's all we know in terms of who is new to the game. <font face="Papyrus">[[User:15DollarsWentSouth|<span style="color: darkblue;">'''15DollarsWentSouth'''</span>]]</font> 20:02, September 27, 2019 (EDT)

== DLC ==

Should we type about the DLC or wait until they are done? [[User:Lucina-is-better-than-marth|Lucina-is-better-than-marth]] ([[User talk:Lucina-is-better-than-marth|talk]]) 08:18, November 6, 2019 (EST)

== Does anybody ever count Pokemon Trainer and the 3 Pokemon separately? ==

I’m asking this because another IP is adding this info in repeatedly. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 13:49, January 2, 2020 (EST)
:Either PT is counted as 1 fighter (Ash/Leaf themselves), or 3 sepearate fighters (the 3 individual Pokémon). It makes no sense to split them into 4 seperate fighters considering you don't even play as the trainer themselves. I don't know why the IP keeps adding that in. <span style="font-family: Algerian">'''[[User:supatoad64|<span style="color:green;">Supα</span>]][[User talk:supatoad64|<span style="color:red;">Toαd</span><span style="color:blue;">64</span>]]'''</span> [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 07:47, January 3, 2020 (EST)

I think that it is three fighters [[User:Lucina-is-better-than-marth|Lucina-is-better-than-marth]] ([[User talk:Lucina-is-better-than-marth|talk]]) 05:25, January 6, 2020 (EST)

That trainer isn’t Ash [[User:64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate]] ([[User talk:64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|talk]]) 22:30, April 18, 2020 (EDT)
:Yeah OK, but [[SW:TALK#Irrelevance|this isn't exactly how talk pages are used]]. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family:Algerian;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #2091ff">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd64,</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font>]]'''</span> 22:41, April 18, 2020 (EDT)

== Female Byleth/original Terry Splash Art ==

Should Female Byleth's splash taglines be included on this page, as well as [[Byleth (SSBU)]]? There are two different taglines for them. Because Terry's first splash screen with the blue background was replaced with the new one with the red background when his full trailer released. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 17:23, January 16, 2020 (EST)

== Flying Man ==

Flying man is considered a "stage boss", along with dark emperor, metal face, and yellow devil. I'm not sure this is accurate - Flying Man has very different properties from the other three in this section. Most notably, he does not attack until a player touches him, and then joins that player's team. The other three stage bosses attack as soon as they spawn, and only sometimes join teams until they've taken enough damage (think yellow devil's explosion). Additionally, flying man is killed when he is launched into a blast zone, and furthermore takes increasing knockback with damage, just like a fighter. The other bosses, on the other hand, do not suffer knockback and die once they've taken enough damage. All that being said, I think that flying man should not share a category with the stage bosses, and perhaps be considered as a stage hazard (and leave the SSBU front page). Note that this would not be the only case of a stage hazard "taking a side". For example, you can attack a cart on one of the Mario Kart stages to launch it at opponents, and I believe that a car launched by a fighter cannot hit that fighter's teammates. [[User:Mogo|Mogo]] ([[User talk:Mogo|talk]]) 12:30, February 1, 2020 (EST)
:I'm pretty sure some rando added this and nobody's bothered to remove it until now. Can't find who though, because every old version of the page with this table has it as it appears now, rather than how it appeared then (bug? fix pls) - [[User:Mega Mario Man|Mega Mario Man]] ([[User talk:Mega Mario Man|talk]]) 04:10, February 2, 2020 (EST)

:This is all true. I have no idea who added it in originally and why or even how they thought he's a boss.

:In response to Mega Mario Man the boss table is a seperate template just lile the character so I'll have to go to the boss table template to find out who added it. Flying Man is not a boss in any way. <span style="font-family: Algerian">'''[[User:supatoad64|<span style="color:green;">Supα</span>]][[User talk:supatoad64|<span style="color:red;">Toαd</span><span style="color:blue;">64</span>]]'''</span> [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 04:20, February 2, 2020 (EST)
::That was me. The thing is Flying Man shares many characteristics of the other stage bosses. Helps you out when you attack him? Just like Ridley in SSB4. Doesn't initially attack you? The Dark Emperor doesn't even actually attack from my knowledge, he just debuffs. Lack of attacks and can respawn? Both characteristics of the Yellow Devil. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 05:03, February 2, 2020 (EST)

== Fighter formatting on the page ==

Shouldn't we list the fighters in order they first appeared rather than series, just like in the game? It kinda annoys me looking at them listed by series
:Well, that's how it is on the pages of the other ''Smash Bros.'' games, so it's ordered like that for consistency. I highly suggest reading these user pages [[User:Toomai/On the order of things|here]] and [[User:Miles of SmashWiki/Ordering|here]] for a better understanding. [[File:SmashTurtlesSig1.png|20px]][[User:SuperSmashTurtles|<span style="color: green;">'''SuperSmashTurtles'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:SuperSmashTurtles|<span style="color: lightgreen;">'''Turtle Tribe'''</span>]][[File:SmashTurtlesSig2.png|20px]] 15:25, October 6, 2020 (EDT)

== No Shadows underneath Pyra / Mythra ==

Just realized Pyra & Mythra are the only characters in the table who do not have a shadow underneath them. Does a version with shadows even exist?
[[Special:Contributions/217.138.255.198|217.138.255.198]] 06:13, March 6, 2021 (EST)

== Do all of Villager/Inkling's 8 alts count as alternate characters? == 

The article mentions the Villager/Inkling's alts of customization amongst the "alternate costume characters" in the Characters section. Is it saying that all 8 of the customization alts are alternate costume characters, or is it just the main male and female alts that are alternate costume characters?
:Only the default male and female variants are counted as alternate characters, as the Villager and Inkling are supposed to customizable avatar characters in the same vein as Robin and Corrin (though unlike the former two, both genders of the latter two still retain the same design for their alts). Therefore, even if all 8 costumes of both Villager and Inkling have their own unique design, it's best to just go with one male variant and one female variant. [[File:JacketTerraSig1.png|20px]]'''The [[User:JacketedTerrapin|<span style="color: blue;">Jacketed</span>]] [[User talk:JacketedTerrapin|<span style="color: green;">Terrapin</span>]]'''[[File:JacketTerraSig2.png|20px]] 16:08, June 29, 2021 (EDT)

== Here are official renders of Pyra/Mythra and Kazuya that actually have shadows ==

Pyra/Mythra
https://twitter.com/NintendoVS/status/1362182403184234500/
<br>
Kazuya 
https://twitter.com/NintendoVS/status/1404865528964030467/

Thought I point this out as its weird and inconsistent that they're the only characters in the table to not have shadows.

[[Special:Contributions/138.199.31.151|138.199.31.151]] 04:30, June 30, 2021 (EDT)
:Those pictures have white background and are not transparent, and as such won't suit our needs. Sorry about that, I like consistency as well. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 08:24, June 30, 2021 (EDT)

== Smasher: Dark Falcon ==
'''Dark Falcon''' is a Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Player Richter player from Brooklyn, New York. He originated from wifi, but is proving himself as a super big threat offline. He has defeated players offline such as Sinji, Dill, Vivi, UtopianRay, WebbJP, and Grunk. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:DarkFalcon423|DarkFalcon423]] ([[User talk:DarkFalcon423|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DarkFalcon423|contribs]]) 02:12, September 9, 2021 (EDT)</small>
:This isn't how you create a Smasher page, you need to be autoconfirmed which is an account created at least 7 days and have 10 edits. Also, whenever you comment on a talk page, makes sure to sign your posts with 4 tildes. (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 02:30, September 9, 2021 (EDT)
:<small>(edit conflict)</small> Having defeated notable players doesn't necessarily make a player notable themselves. And those names who DF has on his belt aren't exactly the most well-known themselves, except perhaps Sinji due to being PGR ranked.<br>More to the point, all of those players (except Grunk, who I cannot find any information on) have at least one Power Ranking under their belt. Dark Falcon however doesn't seem to. That alone [[SW:NOTABLE|wouldn't disqualify them from getting a page on here]], but DF doesn't seem to have, at least not yet, done anything that's truly remarkable.<br>So yeh, unless you can give us more information about DF, like for example a regional-level PR or highly recognisable achievement, we can't accept a page being created at this time. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 02:42, September 9, 2021 (EDT)
::You are wrong because Dark Falcon actually has pretty good online results. He had a breakout tourney which was briefly mentioned in the Discord and his offline weeklies placings ain't bad either. Did you look at Smashdata.gg for this one? [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 02:49, September 9, 2021 (EDT)
:::No. I'm not clever enough to know about such things. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 03:25, September 9, 2021 (EDT)

== DLC development info is a mess here ==

While reading this page, I noticed that the section detailing DLC development is very disorganized and messy; even after trying to clean it up myself, I still thought the same way. My main issue stems from the sheer amount of detail in it - do we really need to specify the release date for every character and the exact air date of Sakurai's presentations with every single detail from it? Sure, some stuff may be notable, such as Sakurai's chance encounter with a Disney rep, but as it currently stands, it's a big mess. I'm not really sure how to do it myself so I'm putting this here. --[[User:123VideoGamerNinja|123VideoGamerNinja]] ([[User talk:123VideoGamerNinja|talk]]) 17:39, August 10, 2022 (EDT)

== Series vs Fighter order ==

I am aware this was brought up above somewhere but i really cannot fathom how it would still make sense to keep it in series order. That was a decision made five or so years ago when the game came out and i don't think it reflects the commonly preferred order now. [[User:Toomai/On the order of things|This talk page]], for example, says the order relies on knowing the history of smash and is harder to search for characters which i'm not sure people would agree on today, since the fighter order is properly reflected on the character select screen. I had made a forum proposal a year ago and it was archived as they said this would be a better place to put it, but I think i would make much more sense to leave the decision up to voting or something like that. [[User:Luigi86101|Luigi86101]] ([[User talk:Luigi86101|talk]]) 23:32, July 12, 2023 (EDT)
:I would personally prefer fighter order because it's ingrained into our minds from it being in the game for years, there's so many third parties these days that it means Byleth is almost at the start of the newcomers which is very odd for DLC interspersed like that, and other newcomers like Isabelle are buried in the middle of the list. Just takes more thought to find characters than it otherwise would imo - that said though, stages being grouped by series DOES feel easier, so if it's one or the other than yeah ig series order [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="seablue">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 17:05, July 13, 2023 (EDT)
:The primary reason is consistency with other games, since we cannot use the Sakurai numbers for them (they're based on development decisions we have to make assumptions for) or for other things on the same page such as stages (again, we'd have to assume a lot). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Riotous 17:08, July 13, 2023 (EDT)
::Crazy idea, but...what if instead we just make each game's stuff sorted by how it appears on its own selection screen? That way there's at least ''some'' consistency, even if it's inconsistent by itself from game to game. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Gamer'''</span>]] 17:25, July 13, 2023 (EDT)
:::The awkward thing with that is that these screens tend to be fairly short-and-wide, which is not ideal for display on wiki pages. And given some games align things based on both rows and columns, wrapping is not viable. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Indescribable 17:37, July 13, 2023 (EDT)
::there's no assuming to be made since we know the numbers for all the ult characters. not to mention that this would keep consistency with the other games since their CSSs use series order already. [[User:Luigi86101|Luigi86101]] ([[User talk:Luigi86101|talk]]) 00:47, July 14, 2023 (EDT)
:::You misunderstood my point. The Sakurai numbers are based on which characters are considered "low dev effort" and which are not. This definition has changed between the games enough that using SSBU's order for games that are not SSBU is inaccurate at best. And of course we can't know whatever the next game will do. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Quintonic 09:28, July 15, 2023 (EDT)
:::thats not what i mean, i'm only saying only the ultimate page should have the characters listed in fighter order because that's the most well known order and official order for ultimate. theres no reason to change any other page or worry about keeping consistency for future games; ultimate can be an exception imo. [[User:Luigi86101|Luigi86101]] ([[User talk:Luigi86101|talk]]) 20:28, July 15, 2023 (EDT)
:I don't have much stake in this wiki anymore, but I do think series order makes much more intuitive sense, since the CSS is designed primarily for its gameplay purpose and not for a wiki "searching for info" purpose. If you want to find info about King Dedede, it's much easier to just look for the Kirby section than to remember he's number 39 or something. That's just me, though. ~ [[User:StrawberryChan|<span style="color: #e68;">'''StrawberryChan'''</span>]] ([[User talk:StrawberryChan|talk]]) 18:51, July 13, 2023 (EDT)
::the thing is i feel in a "searching for info" purpose, fighter order is a lot easier to look at since it's so ingrained into people's minds by now, like i always have trouble finding the character i want with series order. [[User:Luigi86101|Luigi86101]] ([[User talk:Luigi86101|talk]]) 00:47, July 14, 2023 (EDT)
Wanted to bring up a poll (189 votes) i held on my twitter, where fighter order won by a bit https://twitter.com/LuigiTKO/status/1679335311485050881 . Not enough in my opinion to make a definite change but definitely shows that it wasn't as one sided as when the game came out. [[User:Luigi86101|Luigi86101]] ([[User talk:Luigi86101|talk]]) 00:47, July 14, 2023 (EDT)

What would people say to alphabetical order? I don't like it mostly for aesthetic reasons (and a game's main page is the one page I think this matters), but it solves all the other problems - it's objective, it's intuitive, it's consistent, and we use it elsewhere specifically so we don't have to argue about order. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Superlative 09:31, July 15, 2023 (EDT)
:That brings up the issue of transformation characters, since with all of them their names are nowhere close to each other alphabetically, yet it should be obvious that they should be grouped with their counterparts. Ignoring the alternate transformation's name and just grouping them with the primary character could work, but that defeats the point of the consistency. Personally, I think the series order is good; the only times where a character's order is arguable is within their own series (i.e., Lucina was revealed before Robin but Lucina is unlockable while Robin is a starter, or Sheik being revealed first in Melee but all games pre-Ultimate prioritizing Zelda), meaning characters only swap one place instead of five if somebody disagrees. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 15:41, July 15, 2023 (EDT)
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@@ Line 6: / Line 6: @@
 If you want to discuss ''Ultimate'', take it to the [[Forum:Index|forums]]. This talk page is only for discussing the content of our article.}}
-== About Kazuya and Pyra/Mythra without shadows ==
-Noticed there are no shadows on these renders but theres actually shadows on the renders on the japanese Smash twitter when those got posted if anyone can edit in those instead.
 == Character infobox cleanup ==
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