Editing Talk:List of spirits (Final Fantasy series)

==No confirmed spirits?==
:All the other series had confirmed spirits to list. But this page has nothing. Shouldn't we have at least one Final Fantasy spirit confirmed before starting this page? Someone started this page with Zack, but he was removed because no one can find him. I think maybe this page should be deleted until we find a Final Fantasy spirit, but with the game's release in three weeks, it might be a bad time to delete this. But it's easy for an admin to restore pages after they've been deleted, right? Like going into the deletion log and click on "Restore," right? But it might be pointless to delete now only to restore in three weeks. But this article feels redundant without any spirits to list, and with the low amount of representation Final Fantasy is getting, there is a chance that there might not be any spirits. So what should we do? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 15:54, 16 November 2018 (EST)
::Reference [[List of stickers (Ice Climber series)]]. FF probably only Cloud's spirit, like Trophies of SSB4.--[[User:Tyughvbnsi|Tyughvbnsi]] ([[User talk:Tyughvbnsi|talk]]) 21:57, 16 November 2018 (EST)
:::It could be, but has it been confirmed that all fighters would have spirits? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 00:36, 17 November 2018 (EST)

:This page should only be deleted if there are no FF spirits found ''after'' the game releases. There are "Fighter Spirits", which would indicate that ''all'' fighters would/will get one. If after the game is released, and not even Cloud received a Spirit, ''then'' this page should probably be deleted.
::We keep this page until after the game releases, not all spirits have been confirmed yet. [[:User:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|ZeldaStarfoxfan2164]] ([[User talk:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|talk]]) is made in America  18:14, 23 November 2018 (EST)
:::Don't delete it yet-there are likely hundreds and hundreds of more spirits we don't know about yet, and there might be a Cloud one floating around somewhere! [[User:Collateralshrek|Collateralshrek]] ([[User talk:Collateralshrek|talk]]) 18:16, 23 November 2018 (EST)
::::I only mentioned it as someone added the "consideration for deletion" on the page with the reasoning behind it being that no spirits have found yet. The game's not even out yet! [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 18:19, 23 November 2018 (EST)

:Personally, I hate that there are no FF spirits yet. It's annoying. [[User:CleffaGirl173|CleffaGirl173]] 18:35, 23 November 2018 (EST)
::I would assume it would be what copyrighted contract the artwork is part of (same goes for the music). In theory, they could want to include more content, but are prevented if the content is under a contract preventing it. Also in theory, [http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Onion_Knight_(Final_Fantasy_III) Onion Knight] from ''FF III'', [http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Bartz_Klauser Bartz Klauser] from ''FF V'' or [http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Terra_Branford Terra Branford] from ''FF VI'' could be in ''Smash'' (in some form) as they were said to had been in consideration as fighters instead of Cloud, but the issue currently appears to be more about the art and music instead of the characters themselves. Could very well be the case if they were to use one of Cloud's ''Smash'' artwork for his "Fighter Spirit" instead of one from the ''FF'' series. (Assuming he gets one and "Fighter Spirits" use non ''Smash'' art.) I do hope FF (and possibly more Square IPs) is represented with spirits, but we'll just have to wait for the game's release. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 19:42, 23 November 2018 (EST)
:::Even if the game's not out yet, someone should have waited for a Final Fantasy spirit to be confirmed before starting up the page, and at least found a image confirming the spirit. But we may need to wait for the game's release before actually deleting the page. But the deletion tag should stay up until someone finds a spirit related to Final Fantasy. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 20:30, 23 November 2018 (EST)
::::I guess whoever did was just working in advance for all the series so we could just add as they came instead of making them as they came. It's understandable in ''that'' scene. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 20:36, 23 November 2018 (EST)
:Well actually it did start with a spirit on here, and we just accepted it as fact that he was a spirit until someone said otherwise. [[User:Collateralshrek|Collateralshrek]] ([[User talk:Collateralshrek|talk]]) 20:37, 23 November 2018 (EST)
::Yeah, someone started this article and only put Zack on the list. But since there was no image or source and no one could find Zack Fair in any of the footage available, he was removed, leaving this page as a blank list that looks very redundant right now. Maybe if someone could find Zack Fair or any Final Fantasy character, it could save this page. Maybe confirmation that all fighters would have a spirit like Daisy and automatically confirms Cloud's spirit can save this page. But right now, Cloud's spirit is speculative as are the other Fighter Spirits who are not Daisy. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 22:19, 23 November 2018 (EST)
:::It would appear that some copies of ''Ultimate'' were released prematurely, and that someone data mined the total amount of Spirits in the game. According to the [https://pastebin.com/NCi8Af0N list], ''FF'' has a total of two Spirits (just like its music), being "Cloud" and "Cloud (Advent Children)". I'm assuming "Cloud" is his "Fighter Spirit". [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 16:11, 24 November 2018 (EST)
::::How are people getting copies a week early? [[Special:Contributions/97.88.58.90|97.88.58.90]] 14:09, 2 December 2018 (EST)
:::::Because some stores (In Mexico I think?) broke street date and released the game prematurely two weeks prior. If that wasn't bad enough, someone uploaded a rom of the game online for people to download into their hacked Switches, which is where all the early "data mine" stuff came from in a matter of hours of the reveal of the premature copies. (Also, some have witnessed the first 3 ''Ultimate'' Amiibo were released prematurely a week prior) Hope that cleared some things up! (Please correct anything I got wrong!) [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 00:27, 3 December 2018 (EST)

== A bad sign ==

Y'know, it is NEVER a good sign when Modern KONAMI is being more generous than Square. [[User:CleffaGirl173|CleffaGirl173]] ([[User talk:CleffaGirl173|talk]]) 11:44, 28 November 2018 (EST)
:What does that have to do with the article? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 12:57, 28 November 2018 (EST)
::The connection to the article is the fact that Konami has, for the past several years, been treating the majority of their IP's very poorly. However with the inclusion of Simon and the return of Snake, as well as various other Konami references for [[List of spirits (Castlevania series)|Castlevania]] and [[List of spirits (Metal Gear series)|Metal Gear]], they have been more then generous. However Square Enix, despite how vastly popular the Final Fantasy trademark is, and even FF7 it self, we have literally bare bones representation.<br>[[User:Ixbran|Ixbran]] ([[User talk:Ixbran|talk]]) 18:13, 1 December 2018 (EST)
:::[[SW:TALK#Musings|This isn't the right place for that.]]  [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 18:22, 1 December 2018 (EST)

== The trivia that keeps getting removed ==

I heavily argue against its removal; it was big enough to be seen numerous times across social media, and it was even brought up on this very talk page. It's lengthy, sure, but it kind of needs to be, given its story. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: red;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''the Festive Rurouni'''</span>]] 19:24, 30 December 2018 (EST)
:There's a place for it somewhere, but in this context, it's not worthy of mentioning in my opinion. The explanation has to be lengthy in order to drive the point across, but it goes against the structure for trivia points themselves. Trivia points are almost always short, sweet, and to the point. I feel it needs to be removed from this section. <font face="Papyrus">[[User:15DollarsWentSouth|<span style="color: darkblue;">'''15DollarsWentSouth'''</span>]]</font> 02:30, 21 January 2019 (EST)
::Yeah I totally agree. Even disregarding the structure/length point, the incident itself didn't even receive enough notice to consider being a trivia point imo. [[User:Pokebub|Pokebub]] ([[User talk:Pokebub|talk]]) 03:58, 21 January 2019 (EST)
:::I again have to argue against this; it was mentioned enough numerous times across social media (not constantly, I will admit, but consistently enough to be seen more than once), and only ceased ''after'' I said something (which may or may not be a coincidence). As for the length thing, there are quite a few trivia points on this wiki that are lengthy (though not quite as lengthy as this), and, while I know that we don't function like other wikis, I'm fairly certain I've seen other lengthy trivia points on other NIWA wikis (don't quote me on that though). [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 09:10, 22 January 2019 (EST)
::::If it's not an epidemic that rivals the ranks of, say, the ESRB Super Smash Bros. for 3DS leak, it's not notable enough to include as a trivia point; there's just too much opinionated statements spread throughout. The description itself also tends to focus on aspects that go beyond typical trivia points on the wiki (i.e. the "given nature" of Square Enix). In the end, I see nothing salvageable from this entry as it stands, as it's just not to the levels of professionalism we at SmashWiki tend to uphold. I stand by my motion to remove the trivia point. <font face="Papyrus">[[User:15DollarsWentSouth|<span style="color: darkblue;">'''15DollarsWentSouth'''</span>]]</font> 21:25, 22 January 2019 (EST)
:::::I never wrote it to be opinionated; I specifically wrote it to be in a neutral tone, which is why I chose the words "their supposed "stingy" nature" rather than "their given nature". And ''nothing'' will compare to the ESRB leak, because it was the biggest leak in Smash, and possibly gaming, history (at the time, anyway), so that's a bit of an unfair comparison. I fail to see why you're complaining about things that either aren't there or don't make sense. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 11:03, 23 January 2019 (EST)
::Self-referential trivia doesn't really look professional in my opinion. Are trivia points about rumors created from this very site notable? The trivia point was talking about the very page it was on and trivia points are supposed to be facts about the subject that doesn't fit anywhere else on the page. You can just find Zack when you go into the page history. I don't think past edits to a page are notable trivia. Even if they caused a short-lived rumor. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 11:24, 23 January 2019 (EST)
:::I'm well aware of the less professional look of the self-references, but given how the misconception was caused because of ''us'', I don't really see how we have a choice with that. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 12:24, 23 January 2019 (EST)
::::We shouldn't be listing a mistake ''we'' caused as a notable trivia point for a Spirits page. It's not a good look, and we were already scrutinized enough by a couple well-known names in the Smash community around the time this mistake was made. <font face="Papyrus">[[User:15DollarsWentSouth|<span style="color: darkblue;">'''15DollarsWentSouth'''</span>]]</font> 13:23, 23 January 2019 (EST)
:I added all the spirits pages to my watchlist, and I keep seeing you all arguing about that trivia. So here is a little bit of outside perspective : First, I've never heard of that rumor anywere but here (and by here, I mean on that specific FF spirits page and in its talk). Secondly, you realize that you're fighting about the content of a page that almost nobody will ever read ? Is it really worth arguing that much ? [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 13:58, 23 January 2019 (EST)

This seems like a case of "the game hasn't been released yet, not everything was known at the time." Prior to release, there was no Final Fantasy spirits revealed. Upon release and the broken release date, Cloud was discovered in World of Light. While the speculation was a little blown out of proportion, this was just simply a matter of not having enough information available. [[User:Alex95|Alex95]] ([[User talk:Alex95|talk]]) 14:00, 23 January 2019 (EST)
:In the end, because it was a matter of insufficient info, I feel that's the biggest factor in terms of leaving it out of this page. <font face="Papyrus">[[User:15DollarsWentSouth|<span style="color: darkblue;">'''15DollarsWentSouth'''</span>]]</font> 14:35, 23 January 2019 (EST)
::I think trivia should be about factual events, not about people speculations. Like the rumor spreaded from Phil Spencer's tweet about Banjo & Kazooie is proper trivia, while the countless rumors about people wishfuly thinking their favorite character in the game is not. My two cents. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 14:45, 23 January 2019 (EST)
:::I'd argue the opposite, based on your two examples; people speculating that Banjo and Kazooie would be in Smash based on Phil Spencer's tweet is pure speculation, since he only said he was okay with the idea. On the other hand, [[Waluigi|people wanting a character and thinking that they're going to be in the game is entirely notable]].
:::That said, this ''was'' a thing that happened, regardless of how big it became, so that does make it, by your definition, a factual event; I also don't think it should be ignored or euphemized the way it currently is. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 11:43, 24 January 2019 (EST)
::::You may argue the opposite, but the Phil Spencer's tweet is fact, it happened and it makes sense to archive that actual event. People randomly thinking a character could be in the game... pure speculation, no fact, nothing to report : You talk about Waluigi being wanted/speculated... ok, how much ? How many people wanted Waluigi in (for real, not for the meme) ? How many thought he would be in ? If Waluigi is worth mentionning because someone here feel like it was important, what about Sora ? What about Shovel Knight ? What about Geno ? What about Shadow ? What about Shantae ? What about Sans ? What about Spring Man and Ribbon Girl ? The list is endless... so where do you put the bar, and how do you measure that how much a character was wanted/speculated ? Short answer : You can't. That's the problem. In the Phil Spencer's tweet event, that's because of the tweet that it a proper trivia : it doesn't matter how much people wanted/speculated Banjo & Kazooie to be added, the trivia is that Phil Spencer answered to a tweet "Wouldn't it be cool ?" by a "Yes" that led some people (doesn't matter how many) to think that B&K were in the game. The tweet itself and its arguable misleadingness is the trivia here. Speculations are not trivia, any character is speculated in some extend (never forget that some people still serioulsy believe that Goku will end up joining...). If something concrete happened, it's trivia, it's worth mentioning, otherwise, if it's pure speculation, what's the point of archiving that some people baselessly thought something about the game while other people equaly baselessly thought the opposite ? [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 14:37, 24 January 2019 (EST)

After everything said, I think we should definitely remove this trivia. I can't help but think that Aidan might be biased in favor of keeping it simply because he was involved in the situation (being the person to clear things up). The fact remains that this was simply an episode of speculation that originated from a misleading version of this page. The incident itself was not that major and SmashWiki should be under no obligation to actually comment on it within the article itself. That would be better suited for the forums, Discord, or social media. [[User:Pokebub|Pokebub]] ([[User talk:Pokebub|talk]]) 16:49, 24 January 2019 (EST)
:Agreed. We're a sensible forum; we should be able to sort out the facts from the speculation. <font face="Papyrus">[[User:15DollarsWentSouth|<span style="color: darkblue;">'''15DollarsWentSouth'''</span>]]</font> 23:33, 24 January 2019 (EST)
::If I truly was biased in favor of keeping it because I was the one to clear up the whole situation, then wouldn't I have put ''myself'' into the trivia point?
::Regardless, I will back down, on the grounds that I am (seemingly) the only person in favor of keeping it in, bias or not, and I know an uphill battle when I see one, and I generally dislike fighting uphill battles when I know I'm at a disadvantage. (That, and this is the first comment made in a while.) [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: red;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: pink;">'''the Lovely Rurouni'''</span>]] 23:53, 9 February 2019 (EST)

== Cloud in World of Light ==

Despite what the main article states, Cloud actually is in World of Light. Specifically, he's in the "Sacred Realm" sub-area within the "Dark Realm". [[Special:Contributions/97.88.58.90|97.88.58.90]] 02:19, 11 January 2019 (EST)
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