Editing Talk:Jigglypuff (SSBU)

== Special Moves and Other Buffs ==

How do we know that Sing has more range and less lag? Also, where is the footage proving the alleged buffs regarding Pound? Finally, where is footage of Jigglypuff's new dash attack? It seems a lot of the info regarding buffs on this page is speculation. [[SmashAttack64]]

== Back Air ==

how are we gonna keep back aerial comboing into itself if it physically can't LOL

== Please check before adding changes! ==

All well-substantiated and uncertain-but-evidenced changes are currently documented [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GZrK7-VoyfCx3dhhwJq0jANIiza1QSh1EJ3HA3pr4Pc here].  

Please cross-check any new information you claim to have with the [https://discordapp.com/invite/0Wj6QkUoh01KUVPn Jigglypuff Discord]; bring evidence or be deflated. Thank you! [[User:Drakeirving|Drakeirving]] ([[User talk:Drakeirving|talk]]) 00:51, 21 November 2018 (EST)

== Attributes section ==

This is a very long and wordy part of Jigglypuff's SSBU page, enough to where it's longer than the articles of some smashers. There is also some misinformation that I wish to help combat as a Jigglypuff player with reasonable experience with the game. I'll go through each individual part of the attributes, one by one. Here we go!

"Jigglypuff is a character of extremes, as evident with its attributes: it has the 2nd fastest air speed, the highest air acceleration, the slowest falling speed, and the lowest gravity. These attributes make Jigglypuff a very mobile character in the air. However, it also has the 3rd slowest walk and run speed, the 6th slowest initial-dash, the 2nd lowest weight and jump force, and the 7th lowest traction. Collectively, these attributes render Jigglypuff unable to quickly traverse the stage on foot without relying on foxtrotting, and susceptible to early KOs. To make up for its low jumping force, however, it has five midair jumps, which further enhance its aerial evasiveness. Its combination of light weight and floatiness results in Jigglypuff being fairly difficult to combo compared to most other characters as well, but conversely makes it fairly difficult for it to land."

These are all factual points and there is not much to be said, although it is worth noting that this section is nearly identical to the one from Smash 4, where Jigglypuff is a much weaker character:

'Jigglypuff is a character of extremes, as evident with its attributes: it has the second highest traction, the second fastest air speed, the highest air acceleration, the lowest falling speed, and the lowest gravity. These attributes make Jigglypuff a very mobile character in the air and give it easily controllable ground movement. However, it has the slowest walking speed and the second slowest dashing speed, the lightest weight and the lowest jump force, as well as a fairly slow jumpsquat. As such, these attributes make Jigglypuff unable to quickly traverse the stage on foot and susceptible to early KOs. To make up for its low jumping force, however, it has five midair jumps, which further enhance its aerial evasiveness. Its very low gravity also results in it taking slightly below average hitstun.'

There are more interesting things to discuss, so I will move on.

Jigglypuff's main strength is its formidable air game. Excluding back aerial, all of its aerial attacks have lingering hitboxes and, in the case of down aerial, multiple hits. Their duration is the primary reason Jigglypuff is deceptively difficult to challenge in the air, as opponents will most likely collide within an attack's final frames if they attempt to challenge its moves. All of its aerials, aside from up aerial, also have enough range to be spaced effectively thanks to Jigglypuff's aerial mobility, allowing it to zone and approach opponents safely in the air. Each of Jigglypuff's aerials also have their own distinct strengths. Neutral aerial is its fastest aerial and a fairly strong sex kick, even when stale, and can easily gimp poor recoveries due to its late hitbox being sufficiently strong enough to do so. Due to its speed and power, it also works as a good out of shield or approach option, and its long duration allows it to break combos quite effectively. Forward aerial has the second-weakest knockback of Jigglypuff's aerials, but this grants it good combo potential in return. It can easily force opponents off-stage, and is the main component of the wall of pain technique: once an opponent is launched off-stage, Jigglypuff can follow up with several other forward aerials until they reach the blast zone, where Jigglypuff can finish the opponent off with another forward or a neutral aerial. Back aerial is Jigglypuff's strongest aerial, an effective KOing option, and has a remarkable range, given Jigglypuff's small size; similarly to Marth, Roy, Lucina, and Chrom, the move also has the interesting trait of completely turning Jigglypuff around after its use. It is also safe on shield due to its high damage output and above-average hitlag, though it is also Jigglypuff's slowest aerial, making it a bit predictable. Up aerial has a deceptively long-lasting hitbox, which can be problematic for any opponent that has issues dealing with juggling, and it is also a situational finisher near the upper blast line that combos into most of its toolkit if used while landing. Lastly, down aerial can be used as a highly damaging out of shield option, a combo tool, and a pressuring option, and has low ending lag. It can sometimes also work as an anti-juggling option against characters with slow aerial mobility or moves. As well, landing with it can lead into various other moves, especially up tilt and Rest, which allows Jigglypuff to take stocks incredibly early.

The 'in the case of down air, multiple hits.' is somewhat redundant. Down air is functionally about as long lasting as neutral air (18 active frames vs nair's 25, ignoring the 1 frame long gap in between every hit of dair.) Back air's safety on shield courtesy of a buff is not mentioned anywhere here, nor is the fact that nair and fair both can potentially jablock when sour, which is relevant because Jigglypuff has the strongest jablock in the entire game. Down air's ability to autocancel is also not mentioned, which is a shame as it is what allows down air to be the incredible combo tool that it now is. That autocancel potential also came from a buff.

"Jigglypuff's unmatched floatiness, exceptional air speed, multiple jumps, and strong air game give it a tremendous off-stage presence. Due to lacking a traditional recovery move, its recovery is fairly susceptible to gimping if it has used its jumps, though its other attributes make its recovery very effective regardless. Its fast air acceleration also allows it to disorient opponents that attempt to edgeguard it. With the aid of Pound, it can also stall its recovery and protect its landing. Jigglypuff is infamously fearsome at edgeguarding: with proper spacing and good timing, it can gimp even the farthest distanced recoveries without being put at risk; Cloud, Chrom, Ganondorf, Dr. Mario, Little Mac, and Min Min are perhaps the most susceptible to its edgeguarding, as their recoveries lack both speed and resilience, while the latter four performances against Jigglypuff revolve around maintaining stage control most of the time."

"Disorienting" opponents is a very confusing term. What exactly does this mean? Her air stats allow her to space well, yes, but it's not like you're going to make somebody's head spin just because you drifted just outside of their range. The rest of this part seems fairly accurate, especially since ya boi decided to edit this part a little so many months ago.

"Finally, Jigglypuff has a trump card in Rest, its signature move; it has powerful vertical knockback at all percentages, to the point where it can reliably KO any character at 70%, but KOs most characters at as early as 50%. It hits on frame 2 with a flower effect and has full intangibility until Jigglypuff closes its eyes. In addition to being an incredible punishment option, the threat of Rest forces opponents to be very careful when using laggy moves, especially due to Jigglypuff's ability to perform an occasionally situational true combo into it. One of the best ways to confirm a Rest is with forward aerial: hitting with the move's final frames will lead into an unavoidable Rest, which becomes even more potent if used in the air or with high rage. Depending on the opponent's falling speed, a jump may be necessary to reach them. Another reliable way to confirm one is by landing with up aerial: should Jigglypuff land immediately after hitting the opponent, Rest can be landed without fail. This combo works optimally on platforms due to its limited percentage range and its ability to KO as early as 30%."

The "finally" here is obviously misleading since this isn't even close to the end of the attributes section, nor even Jigglypuff's strengths. As is the the point where rest "can reliably KO any character at 70%" since this is very dependent on weight and rage. Bowser infamously can survive a rest at percents even higher than this on bigger stages. Another fact on Rest that is completely missed is that opponents can actually mash to shorten the duration of the flower effect, similar to mashing out of sleep. Falling up air specifically is also notable as one of Jigglypuff's best rest followups, even more so than forward air, as with forward air you need to position yourself well and land the sourspot. I would personally included it before late fair into rest. Lastly, I'll briefly mention up tilt into rest here, as although it has tight percent windows, this confirm in particular has potential to kill unreasonably early. I believe it should be included here instead of the following section.

"Up tilt can also combo into Rest on its own or after a landing down aerial, which can be used to rack up at least 30% and potentially KO as well (especially on platforms), but opponents may be launched too far away past low percentages. Lastly, retreating with down aerial can also work, but aside from being the hardest to perform, it is also the least likely to succeed. Other methods of safely using Rest involve crouching, buffering, a footstool jump, a jab reset, or interrupting an opposing neutral attack, though few characters are vulnerable to these methods, and they usually require impeccable timing. Platforms can be a saving grace when considering Rest, as they can lead into 0% KO confirms on certain characters and, if they are moving, can make it a bit harder to punish. For all its potential, however, Rest has extremely slow interruptibility, making it very easy to punish if whiffed, though Jigglypuff can skip some of the move's ending lag if it is successfully landed."

As mentioned earlier, up tilt rest makes more sense to be included in the previous part with falling up air rest and late forward air rest. Retreating down air is also a very vague term, I've never heard a puff call a down air into rest confirm "retreating dair rest." Instead, we have drill rest, which is landing directly into the ground with down air into a rest, and rising dair rest, which is rising with the titular move, and quickly jump resting to KO the opponent, which works due to the frame advantage that down air offers (something that was also never mentioned earlier iirc.) Drill rest is frequently frowned upon in the puff community as although it's the easiest confirm to perform, it's very inconsistent and only works well in a handful of matchups, such as Kirby and Meta Knight. Puffcord has an entire section in their FAQ about drill rest. Rising dair rest is less common but has potentially even more reward as the opponent will be higher up when the rest connects. Similar to up tilt rest, however, this is a very tight window. I would lump drill rest and rising dair rest with the other rest confirms in the previous part. The rest of this part is all well and good, no complaints there.

"However, Jigglypuff is held back by numerous weaknesses. The most detrimental is its survivability: Jigglypuff's stats result in it having among the worst endurance out of any character in the game. As a result, it can be knocked out as early as 30% with a sufficiently strong attack. Rage is an additional burden, since opponents can send it flying even earlier with it while Jigglypuff will generally not survive long enough to reap the benefits of rage itself. These drawbacks force Jigglypuff to play extremely cautiously, as any damage taken can prove dangerous in the long run. Adding insult to injury, Jigglypuff's shield jump launches it upward with enough force to KO it even from the very bottom of Palutena's Temple. This makes shielding notably risky at low percentages, as the possibly survivable punishes normally received after a shield break are replaced by a guaranteed KO that can only be stopped by a ceiling."

This part is just fine, even if the "it launches with enough force to KO it even from the very bottom of Palutena's Temple." is somewhat redundant. Jigglypuff's shield popping in general is not as significant of a flaw as it may seem; shieldbreaks in general are relatively rare in competitive play, and Jigglypuff has other means of avoiding attacks.

"Furthermore, Jigglypuff has a very problematic ground game. While most of its ground moves are fast in proportion to their power, its lack of range and slow grounded approach prevent it from racking up large amounts of damage with the majority of said moves. This is worsened when considering the utility of its grounded attacks: neutral attack's incredible speed can lead into additional follow-ups, dash attack can KO at unusually low percentages, forward tilt is fast and highly damaging, up tilt is an effective combo tool and has considerable KO power to boot, and down tilt is a semi-spike with high base knockback that can easily gimp many recoveries. As for its smash attacks, forward smash has surprisingly high knockback scaling, while down smash has intangibility and the lowest launch angle of any other conventional semi-spike. Its grab game also has similar issues: while Jigglypuff has some of the fastest grabs in the game and a decently damaging set of throws, the former have very short range and the latter lack any follow-ups or KO potential, with its strongest throw, up throw, not being able to KO reliably even well beyond 200%. This also results in Jigglypuff being easily kept at bay by shields without the usage of Pound's high shield damage."

Now, here is where we begin to run into some major issues. First of all...really? Neutral attack? I understand it is technically correct, but everybody calls this a jab and using the term "neutral attack" does nothing but confuse the reader. It is also confusing why the strengths of Jigglypuff's grounded moves are included in a part that is supposed to begin highlighting Jigglypuff's downsides. Jab was also given even more combo potential following a buff. Up smash is also hilariously omitted here, which is fitting due to it possessing the status of being one of the worst up smashes in the game, although in the context of her kit it works just well enough, being a basic anti air that covers more area and kills earlier than her next best option, up tilt. Down smash also specifically has intangibility on Jigglypuff's feet, nowhere else. This is not the largest disservice in the world, however, that would be:

'Its grab game also has similar issues: while Jigglypuff has some of the fastest grabs in the game and a decently damaging set of throws, the former have very short range and the latter lack any follow-ups or KO potential, with its strongest throw, up throw, not being able to KO reliably even well beyond 200%. This also results in Jigglypuff being easily kept at bay by shields without the usage of Pound's high shield damage.'

Oh my god where do I begin. First of all, yes, Jigglypuff's grabs are pretty fast, although her pivot grab in particular actually doesn't grant very much extra range and is quite frankly nearly useless compared to standing grab or dash grab. The section about her throws being decently damaging is also fine, although down throw in particular is notable for being her most damaging throw and is frequently used when Jigglypuff is not positioned near a ledge and up throw is nowhere near killing, which is uncommon due to that move being arguably the worst in her kit, despite it being her best kill throw. Back throw is a pretty below average positioning tool, but the real war crime here is that there is zero mention of Jigglypuff's forward throw buff. This single change drastically bolstered Jigglypuff's edgeguarding game, as the new angle that it sends at is very low and forces the opponent to burn some sort of option, meaning getting the gimp on them is much easier than before. It also can put opponents in a tech situation at low percents, which is very deadly due to Jigglypuff's aforementioned tools that punish missed techs and predicted tech options. Shield camping against Jigglypuff is not at all viable in the current meta, as it can be against characters such as Bayonetta or Little Mac, as not only does Pound significantly damage shields and Down throw deal significant damage on its own merits, but Forward throw has the potential to put opponents in a life-threatening position where making one wrong guess could mean the difference between life or death, which is extremely advantageous for a glass cannon character such as Jigglypuff. It is tragic that this was not mentioned earlier, especially owing to how the best Jigglypuff in the world, BassMage, frequently recites Forward throw as being the strongest buff the character has recieved in Ultimate. This part in particular needs heavy revision. Moving on!

"Jigglypuff's approach, despite being good in the air, is overall predictable. Most of the time, Jigglypuff is forced to remain close to the opponent, read their option in order to approach, or bait it in order to make its move. Its aerial moves are not good for approaching from a long distance as they are unsafe on shield when late, and its dash attack is terrible at doing so due to its long duration and ineffective sourspots, despite its relatively low cooldown. Coupled with the overall short range on its attacks, it has notoriously difficult matchups against characters with large disjoints like Ike, Lucina, and Shulk. Its polarizing mobility is also a noticeable flaw. Although it has among the best aerial games in Ultimate, its ground movement is one of the worst, as it does not efficiently give Jigglypuff the chance to traverse across the ground quickly like most other lightweight characters can, and in turn makes it very troubling on the offensive side of battle should it be versing speedy characters, such as Fox and Sonic. Finally, due to it's reliance on taking stocks with an edgeguard or a Rest setup, it can sometimes struggle to take stocks without commiting with one strong attack, especially against Yoshi."

We're in the home stretch! Now, first of all, commiting is a typo, it's spelled committing. As is it's, which should just be its. With that out the way, as mentioned earlier, Jigglypuff's back air receiving a buff that makes the move safer on shield is significant for making her shield game as a whole very solid, should her aerials be spaced correctly. Dash attack having a "large duration" is also somewhat misleading. It doesn't have a large duration; it has a large amount of endlag. It also has an ineffective late hit (as opposed to sourspots; it's not a multihit attack.) The mention of range as a problem is a significant issue, however, arguably even more so than her weak ground game, and the three characters mentioned are indeed losing matchups for Jigglypuff, with only Shulk being anywhere near arguable. Jigglypuff struggling to kill is, however, not as notable of a weakness as it may seem. Although her primary kill moves in back air and up tilt may struggle to kill on their own when spammed, Jigglypuff can easily knock an opponent offstage at high percents and put them in a tough position, one which often leads to Jigglypuff getting more damage at worst and taking a stock at best.

"Overall, Jigglypuff is an air-based glass cannon that can quickly rack up damage or KO opponents, but can be KOed in turn just as quickly. Its strengths are on par with its weaknesses, and while it has lower representation than most other characters due to the aforementioned weaknesses, it has received somewhat reasonable results from players such as Arika and BassMage."

Last part! This part sums up Jigglypuff in a couple quick sentences, and although something like "opponents, but" could be changed to "opponents but" for grammar purposes, both are fairly interchangeable. At this point in time, Senra is solidly the best Jigglypuff in Japan, and their name should replace Arika's and come after BassMage, i.e, " it has recieved somewhat reasonable results from players such as BassMage and Senra." Lastly, change "somewhat reasonable" to "solid" as both essentially mean the same thing and "somewhat reasonable" is needlessly ambiguous. 

WOO I'M DONE!!!! This was super exhausting to do and took over an hour, but I enjoyed providing my own insight and dispelling common errors when it comes to this character that I've grown to care about more than I could ever know. I'm probably going to recieve some flack for this for being quite biased, but I tried to be as objective as possible when it came to my suggested changes and I ultimately created this post to dispel misinformation and make Jigglypuff's attributes look much more neat. This is my first time ever using a talk page, so any friendly and constructive criticism is much appreciated! I am sorry for making you guys read all this lmao.

Have a good night! <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:CitrusJigglypuff|CitrusJigglypuff]] ([[User talk:CitrusJigglypuff|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CitrusJigglypuff|contribs]]) 00:54, May 6, 2023 (EDT)</small>
:It would've been better if you quoted only the parts you wanted to address instead of the entire paragraph, bringing the talk page to 2/3rds the archive limit. Especially needless when you copy an entire paragraph just to say "this is fine". The majority of things you brought up are sensible changes and probably could be changed on the article without discussion.
:I do have a few nitpicks of my own. First regarding Rest KO%, the unwritten guideline is that KO%s are on Final Destination, no Rage, optimal DI, and either fresh or no staling; most legal stages are similar in size to FD, so these restrictions give a good baseline and testing every percent on Palutena's Temple would result in ridiculously high values. With that in mind, Bowser is KOd around 75-80% (depending on fresh or not), so the percent just needs to be raised a bit. Second, if you have issue with the term "Neutral attack", see this [[Talk:Neutral_attack#Move_proposal|failed proposal]] about the matter. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 10:36, May 6, 2023 (EDT)
::Thank you for replying! I wanted to be very thorough with my analysis, but I had no idea there was an archive limit and I also had no idea that there was an unwritten rule about KO percents. That could probably change! And I had no idea that the neutral attack thing had a proposal that failed. I think that's very silly, but honestly I don't care enough to bother with making an effort to change it. I am a Jigglypuff specialist, after all. I will go ahead and start making some changes to the Attributes section involving the things I brought up earlier. Thank you for your helpful critique! [[User:CitrusJigglypuff|CitrusJigglypuff]] ([[User talk:CitrusJigglypuff|talk]])
:::The [[SmashWiki:Talk_pages#Archiving|archive limit]] is more a rule-of-thumb and I think there was talk of raising it&mdash;even if there wasn't a limit, a 21,000 byte talk page post is a bit much. And it isn't a surprise you haven't heard of the unwritten rule because... it isn't written (except for cases like now). --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 22:14, May 6, 2023 (EDT)
	You aren't logged in. While it's not a requirement to create an account, doing so makes it a lot easier to keep track of your edits and a lot harder to confuse you with someone else. If you edit without being logged in, your IP address will be recorded in the page's edit history.
	Log in	Create account
Insert common text
Signature	~~~~
Symbols	£ ¥ ° ± × ÷ € ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥
Diacritics	À Á Â Ã Ä Å Æ Ç È É Ê Ë Ì Í Î Ï Ð Ñ Ò Ó Ô Õ Ö Ø Œ Ù Ú Û Ü Ý Þ ß à á â ã ä å æ ç è é ê ë ì í î ï ð ñ ò ó ô õ ö ø œ ù ú û ü ý þ ÿ
Wikitext	[] [[]] \| [[Category:]] [[File:]] #REDIRECT: [[]] {\| \|- \|\| \|}
Templates	{{cleanup}} {{image}} {{reflist}} {{stub}} {{d}} {{delete}}
Formatting	<!----> <br> <code></code> <gallery></gallery> <nowiki></nowiki> <ref></ref> <references/> {{#widget:YouTube\|id=}}
Substitution	<includeonly></includeonly> <noinclude></noinclude>