Editing Talk:Grab aerial

== Tether Malfunction ==

I heard that if you use the Z-air to recover three times on the edge, it won't work. (Can somebody verify this?) [[User:Smashdude10|Smashdude10]] ([[User talk:Smashdude10|talk]]) 18:46, 11 February 2014 (EST)
:"A tether recovery can only be used three times without touching the ground; if it is used a fourth time, the tether will not grab onto the edge"
:The tether recovery page covers this information and should be the primary area for one to search to figure out that information. <span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|19px]] 20:30, 10 February 2014 (EST)

==Rename to aerial tether==
I brought this up a while back on the Discord but the name "grab aerial" is very problematic in my opinion. When you use that term, it carries with it the potential implication(s) that it's a move that can grab people in midair, that all characters have it because all characters have a grab, and other misleading half-truths or conclusions that are outright false, and I just think it's a confusing term (I could see somebody mistaking it for aerial item grabs, for instance). Nobody actually uses this term, either, which just adds to the confusion when you see this article linked to.

I'd propose changing the title of this article to aerial tether, as that better communicates that it can be used exclusively characters with tether grabs, doesn't make any mention of grabbing, and implies the existence of the unique recovery mechanics they have. Tether aerial could also work and would better match the format of other air attack names, but aerial tether just rolls off the tongue better.

Of course if this change was to be made, it'd necessitate a good few changes to articles and tables and templates and stuff, but I think it would be worth it. [[File:Nymbaresigicon.png]] [[User:Nymbare|<span style="color:#00BFFF">Nymbare</span>]] [[User talk:Nymbare|<span style="color:#0066FF">and his talk</span>]] 13:50, August 4, 2019 (EDT)
:The current name of the page matches the format of (almost) all the other move class names: it's based on the ''input''. It's unfortunate that in this specific case the name of the input is strongly tied to a different action altogether, but I don't think using the word "tether" in the name would improve matters:
:*Some characters have zairs but no tether (Luigi SSBU). Some characters have tethers but no zair (Ivysaur).
:*There are no tethers in Melee; this would drag a new term into its world.
:In my opinion, for this rename to be worth the effort of changing across the template space, it would have to be the sort of improvement that's clear and obvious across the board. I don't think this is it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Honcho 14:50, August 4, 2019 (EDT)

::You said it yourself that the name of this page matched ''almost'' all other move inputs. These rules have exceptions and we need to be willing to bend or break the rules to accommodate for the exceptions where it's necessary. I believe this is a necessary case.
::As for your examples, Luigi is the ''only'' character with a zair but no tether recovery, not one of a handful. While the point about Ivysaur's tether is true, aerial tether implies that, unlike Ivysaur's Vine Whip (or any other special move for that matter), it can ''only'' be used in the air, which is true of these attacks. And while Melee lacks tether recoveries, the term "tether" has still become series standard for long-ranged grabs, to the point where even in Melee tutorials, commentaries, and general discussion you will still see the term 'tether grab' used much more often for Samus/Link's grabs.
::By far the most common term for this type of attack is "zair", but obviously we can't name an article that in the same way we can't name an article fair or bair, and I still firmly hold that the term grab aerial doesn't work. Aerial tether, I believe, is what we should name this article in the absence of an apparent official term in order to most clearly communicate what the attack is.
::Outside of this wiki I had never heard the term "grab aerial" even used a single time before I did a [https://www.google.com/search?ei=pmlHXe6RBtCisAWb9KeYAw&q=%22grab+aerial%22+smash&oq=%22grab+aerial%22+smash&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39.29878.31262..32553...0.0..0.91.179.2......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71..12%3A0j13%3A0.9S65oiPKOU8&ved=0ahUKEwju_MrerurjAhVQEawKHRv6CTMQ4dUDCAo&uact=5 Google search]. Now I have seen it on a scattered handful of SmashBoards and Q&A posts, but the vast majority of this term's usage comes from this wiki and searching "smash grab aerial" off of this wiki and Smashpedia will net you almost across the board a list of literal midair grabs, mods that implement them, etc. [[File:Nymbaresigicon.png]] [[User:Nymbare|<span style="color:#00BFFF">Nymbare</span>]] [[User talk:Nymbare|<span style="color:#0066FF">and his talk</span>]] 19:39, August 4, 2019 (EDT)

Apparently the official term for grab aerials is '''grab attack''', used in Tips. I don't think it is a good name for a page though, and I don't really see the issue with the current one, it's already a common enough name. [[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 17:27, August 4, 2019 (EDT)
:"Grab attack" is actually the official name for pummels. I believe it's another instance of naming an attack based strictly on its input having potential shortcomings and causing confusion, and is one of the exceptions to that rule that the wiki has already adopted. [[File:Nymbaresigicon.png]] [[User:Nymbare|<span style="color:#00BFFF">Nymbare</span>]] [[User talk:Nymbare|<span style="color:#0066FF">and his talk</span>]] 19:39, August 4, 2019 (EDT)
::You are not wrong, but you are also not entirely right.
::*The community's been using "pummel" since Melee came out, partly because the word appears in some bonuses. "Grab attack" didn't come along until SSB4 tips. While it technically is an exception (the only one, assuming "Final Smash" doesn't count), I think it's a valid one. Not just because there's no need to change from a well-established term to an official one, but because:
::*SSBU's tips use the term "grab attack" to refer to both pummels and grab aerials. (I'm making a disambig page because of finding this out.) Us having a page called "grab aerial" feels (to me) likely to help newbies with ''this'' confusion.
::Again though, I stress that moving this page (and therefore changing what we call the move on all other pages) is very high-effort. Since the current title isn't ''wrong'', I'm not a fan of doing it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Incomperable 23:58, August 4, 2019 (EDT)
:::I understand your desire to keep things the way they are, and it would definitely be simpler all things considered, but even if the current title isn't technically incorrect, I still think for the reasons I've stated above that changing it would be a worthy pursuit and would help newer players better understand the purpose, usage, and nature of this move in the absence of a widely-accepted formal name. We're a wiki, and we need to be easy to understand. I'm willing to assist in the potential move.
:::In fact, if this change is to go through, I'd actually also try to push for the renaming of the neutral attack page to 'jab' just because that name is used so much more widely, even on the wiki, to the point of being a more formal term by virtue of how often it's used. But that's an 'if', and that conversation should be held for later.
:::That being said, it seems we are at a standstill at the moment and I think it would be beneficial to get input from others. [[File:Nymbaresigicon.png]] [[User:Nymbare|<span style="color:#00BFFF">Nymbare</span>]] [[User talk:Nymbare|<span style="color:#0066FF">and his talk</span>]] 20:22, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
::::I support changing the name of this article to "Aerial Tether"... even if, as Toomai mentioned, not naming it based upon its input is inconsistent with other articles on the wiki... I have literally never once heard a zair referred to as a Grab Aerial. Even if it would be relatively easy to read into the article and figure out what the term implies, at first glance I know ''I'' would be personally confused to hear "grab aerial"... you can't grab in the air, but that confusion would be lifted if it was specified to involve a tether if you ask me. [[User:Acgamer28|Acgamer28]] ([[User talk:Acgamer28|talk]]) 09:24, January 22, 2020 (EST)
:::::I never heard of players refer to the "zair" as a "grab aerial". A zair does not grab fighters but ledges, that is very confusing. I support the page move from "grab aerial" to "aerial tether". [[File:Derekblue1SigHead1.png|20px|link=]] [[User:Derekblue1|<span style="color:#20B2AA;">'''Derekblue1'''</span>]] [[User talk:Derekblue1|<span style="color:#20B2AA;">(talk)</span>]] [[File:Derekblue1SigHead2.png|20px|link=]] 21:12, April 12, 2020 (EDT)

== Ledge Grabbing ==

There is no mention of Zairs grabbing ledges, which is a function that all of them can do.  [[User:SpiritSobble|SpiritSobble]] ([[User talk:SpiritSobble|talk]]) 18:38, April 2, 2020 (EDT)
:Last sentence of the first paragraph mentions [[tether recovery|tether recoveries]], which talks about zairs and other moves that can grab ledges.--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 18:49, April 2, 2020 (EDT)

== Rename ==

Now to resolve a conflict let's decide what this should be: grab aerial or aerial tether. As for me I'm '''neutral''' for now because both sides appear to have equal amount of pros and cons. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #18F">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<span style="font-size:12pt"><font color="blue">OmegαToαd64</font></span>]] • [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font>]]'''</span> 21:11, May 9, 2020 (EDT)
:Both grab aerial and aerial tether are scarcely used and can be misleading (Ivysaur has a tether but no zair, Luigi has a zair but no tether). I know zair is informal and is only called that based on a button input, but considering how popular the name is, and the complete lack of an official name for these moves, I personally would like to have this article named '''zair'''. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 21:24, May 9, 2020 (EDT)
::<s>I support renaming this article '''Aerial tether''' because even though I have only ever heard of this type of move referred to as a ''zair'', ''aerial tether'' is a name that in my opinion is the most accurately descriptive. The name ''grab aerial'' can easily be perceived as misleading, even if it does incorporate a part of the technical input involved with performing such a move. There's a context needed to properly interpret what a ''grab aerial'' could be, which the term ''aerial tether'' simply communicates better, in my opinion at least. [[User:Acgamer28|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:blue">'''Acgamer28'''</span>]] 14:10, May 10, 2020 (EDT)</s> voided by [[User:Acgamer28|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:blue">'''Acgamer28'''</span>]] 02:26, May 13, 2020 (EDT), see response to OmegaToad below

The IP mentioned '''zair''' and, despite being informal, I believe that '''z aerial''' may be the best compromise should this be renamed. This way not only will it not be misleading but also consistant with the other aerial attacks (up aerial, down aerial, etc), and also fit with our [[SW:OFFICIAL#"Official" nomenclature|policy]] about nomenclature. I support '''z-aerial'''. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #18F">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd64</font>]] • [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<span style="font-size:7pt"><font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font></span>]]'''</span> 23:34, May 12, 2020 (EDT)
:After discourse about this proposed move in the discord, I'm actually sort of '''leaning towards this''' option now. We have the leeway to do so: there's no official term for this move type, it's closest to what is generally regarded by most people to be the term for this move type, and the other options are either somewhat misleading despite being etymologically direct (Grab aerial) or technically invalid despite being clear (Aerial tether). It's definitely a notch above just ''Zair'', and since this seems to be a one of a kind situation for a move type, we don't really need to worry too much about consistency with other articles, right? [[User:Acgamer28|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:blue">'''Acgamer28'''</span>]] 02:26, May 13, 2020 (EDT)
::Actually, I '''support''' this idea too. Z-air is by far the most widely recognized term. '''Your Senpai,''' [[User:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: red;">'''Iron'''</span>]] [[User talk:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: cyan;">'''Warrior'''</span>]] 19:38, August 21, 2020 (EDT)

'''Bumping.''' I personally want to see more people revisit this discussion, especially to consider the possibility of naming it '''z aerial.''' [[User:Acgamer28|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:blue">'''Acgamer'''</span>]][[User talk:Acgamer28|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:red">'''28'''</span>]][[File:Acgamer28SignatureHead.png|20px]] 01:46, June 10, 2020 (EDT)

'''Support'''. Aerial tether seems to make the most sense, but Z-aerial could work. Gonna be a pain to edit across the wiki tho. --[[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]] 13:33, June 28, 2020 (EDT)

'''Neutral'''. Grab aerial makes the most sense to me as it essentially states that you're inputting a grab in the air, but doesn't necessarily mean actually grabbing in the air. It would've been a different story if it was called "aerial grab" which is just downright wrong. Z aerial could also work as zair is the most commonly used name for this, but at the same time you have to consider that grab can be mapped to any button in every game after Melee. Aerial tether wouldn't work as Luigi has a zair but no actual tether. The only way I can see aerial tether working is if Luigi's unique case is ignored, which wouldn't be too crazy considering it's the only one without a tether out of 8 characters.

'''Oppose'''. Z-Aerial would have been fine in ''Melee'' where Z was the only grab button besides R/L + A. Now, you can map it everywhere on a whole array of controllers. Grab aerial may confuse some people, but its niche usage and easy-to-understand name makes it really easy to understand with only basic context. I think aerial tether doesn't do the move justice and z-aerial doesn't fit the input anymore. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 01:04, September 1, 2020 (EDT)
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	'''Oppose'''. Z-Aerial would have been fine in ''Melee'' where Z was the only grab button besides R/L + A. Now, you can map it everywhere on a whole array of controllers. Grab aerial may confuse some people, but its niche usage and easy-to-understand name makes it really easy to understand with only basic context. I think aerial tether doesn't do the move justice and z-aerial doesn't fit the input anymore. [[User:Zeckemyro\|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro\|talk]]) 01:04, September 1, 2020 (EDT)		'''Oppose'''. Z-Aerial would have been fine in ''Melee'' where Z was the only grab button besides R/L + A. Now, you can map it everywhere on a whole array of controllers. Grab aerial may confuse some people, but its niche usage and easy-to-understand name makes it really easy to understand with only basic context. I think aerial tether doesn't do the move justice and z-aerial doesn't fit the input anymore. [[User:Zeckemyro\|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro\|talk]]) 01:04, September 1, 2020 (EDT)

	:I '''Oppose''', as Grab aerial does a good job explaining what it is, since you press the grab button to perform it. [[Special:Editcount/PinkYoshiFan\|---]][[User:PinkYoshiFan\|Pink]][[User talk:PinkYoshiFan\|Yoshi]][[Special:Contributions/PinkYoshiFan\|Fan]] 11:33, September 18, 2020 (EDT)
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