Editing Talk:Arsène

==Deletion==
I have next to no knowledge of the Persona series, let alone Persona 5. However, I believe that, at most, this page should be moved and become a draft until actual confirmation, similar to the Ubisoft page, as Arsene was present in the trailer, and (from what I can tell) is a major part of the Joker in his own game. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 18:16, 4 January 2019 (EST)

:'''Opposed'''. Arsene was clearly depicted in Jokers trailer, and he is the default persona Joker has access too in the game when his powers are unlocked. Arsene is tied directly to joker's character, like [[Madama Butterfly]] is to [[Bayonetta]], and the [[Pikmin (species)|Pikmin]] are to [[Olimar]]. Joker literally cant use any of his magical abilities without Arsene.<br>[[User:Ixbran|Ixbran]] ([[User talk:Ixbran|talk]]) 18:18, 5 January 2019 (EST)
::'''Oppose''' Echoing the above; it also isn't "ambiguous" as to whether or not Arsene gets his own article, as we have pages for Madama Butterfly, the Pikmin, and [[Luma]]s, all of which are an integral part of Bayonetta's, Olimar's, and [[Rosalina]]'s movesets (respectively). [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: #FFD700;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: #FFD700;">'''the Celebratory Rurouni'''</span>]] 10:31, 8 January 2019 (EST)
::If we want to have it like Ubisoft, however, I ''can'' move this to my userspace, and then move it back should we need it, or delete it if we don't. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: #FFD700;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: #FFD700;">'''the Celebratory Rurouni'''</span>]] 10:32, 8 January 2019 (EST)

So... is this enough for a consensus? [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 12:28, 13 January 2019 (EST)

The proposition to delete it has been up since th e 3rd, and it is now the 18th and so far the only people to comment on the subject oppose the deletion. so i think yeah its been long enough.<br>[[User:Ixbran|Ixbran]] ([[User talk:Ixbran|talk]]) 14:31, 18 January 2019 (EST)

==The recent move==
While the name is definitely canon in Persona 5 Royal, the tips in Smash Ultimate all don’t have the è, instead having a regular e. Considering how this is Smash Wiki and not Persona Wiki, shouldn’t the page be more reflective on how it is in Smash instead of Persona? [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 00:20, April 2, 2020 (EDT)


It's just an è it's fine [[User:Thegameandwatch|Thegameandwatch]] ([[User talk:Thegameandwatch|talk]]) 04:00, April 2, 2020 (EDT)
:While the accent mark is incredibly minor, and Arsene's name itself also minor (only showing up in tips from what I can tell), I think we still should prioritize how it's spelled in Smash itself. Unless someone has an example of another time when we've named a page a more canonical name over what it was in Smash. '''[[User:JamesHeart123|<font color="blue">James</font>]]'''[[File:JH-Heartless.png|15px|link=Special:Contributions/JamesHeart123]]'''[[User talk:JamesHeart123|<font color="orange">Heart</font>]]''' 17:12, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

:I think the è spelling not being in smash was probably a mistake carried over from the original Persona 5. Also, other pages like the [[Giant Goomba]] are not using the official name on this website so it really doesn't matter. [[User:Thegameandwatch|Thegameandwatch]] ([[User talk:Thegameandwatch|talk]]) 17:17, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
::You mentioned [[SW:OFFICIAL]] in your edit summary, and yeah, that's applicable here. After my initial message, I started thinking that since Royal released, people are probably going to start prioritizing "Arsène" as the accepted spelling (unless they can't be bothered to copy an "è"), and it's probably better to go with a name more accepted by the community anyway. '''[[User:JamesHeart123|<font color="blue">James</font>]]'''[[File:JH-Heartless.png|15px|link=Special:Contributions/JamesHeart123]]'''[[User talk:JamesHeart123|<font color="orange">Heart</font>]]''' 17:55, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I agree. I feel like [[SW:OFFICIAL]] could definitely apply here. [[User:Aykrivwassup|Aykrivwassup]] ([[User talk:Aykrivwassup|talk]]) 22:03, May 6, 2020 (EDT)

First off the page should not have been moved in the first place because there wasn't a consensus. Even though it's a minor thing, what we prioritize is whatever name is used in Smash. However if the community prefers a different name rather than the official name, then we use the name that the community prioritizes (eg "[[SDI]]" over "hitstun shuffling"). [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family:Algerian">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd</font> <font color="aqua">the Toαd Wαrrior</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">(BUP)</font></span>]]''' 18:05, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
:I'll admit - I'm the one that moved it; however, I only did so because somehow someone moved the talk page without moving the main page. So I basically did it for consistency. Perhaps I should have just moved this one back though, given the debate I've started ^_^' Though personally I do think we should keep the change, but in the end it's up to the community. [[User:Aykrivwassup|Aykrivwassup]] ([[User talk:Aykrivwassup|talk]]) 21:52, May 6, 2020 (EDT)
::The talk page was moved during April Fools Day. For all I know it was a prank. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 15:30, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Personally, It really depends if the update changes the name for Arsene to Arsené in update 8.0.0. So really we will have to wait til June. [[User:S3AHAWK|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:Blue;">S3AHAWK</span>]][[File:S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.png|20px]][[File:S3AHAWK_signature_icon_2.png|20px]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|Talk]]) 20:57, April 25, 2020 (EDT)

But until that happens, we should just say that Arsène is just a one-off. And Arsene is still how it’s spelled in Ultimate anyhow. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:73.166.103.61|73.166.103.61]] ([[User talk:73.166.103.61|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/73.166.103.61|contribs]]) 16:00, May 4, 2020</small>

:While I'd normally say we go with whatever name is used in Smash Bros, the accented "e" is still a minor thing so if the community prefers it as "é" then I don't believe we need to move it back. If neither is prioritized however then the one that should be used is whichever is used in Smash Bros. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #18F">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<span style="font-size:12pt"><font color="blue">OmegαToαd64</font></span>]] • [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font>]]'''</span> 08:08, May 4, 2020 (EDT)
::I agree; it's so minor that it's not really that big of an issue in my opinion. [[User:Aykrivwassup|Aykrivwassup]] ([[User talk:Aykrivwassup|talk]]) 21:52, May 6, 2020 (EDT)

I just noticed that someone added "referred to as '''Arsene''' prior to ''Persona 5 Royal''" in the introduction. I think that's a great compromise to including the accent. Alternatively, if the consensus ends up being to remove the accent, we could change it to "Referred to as Arsène in ''Persona 5 Royal''". [[User:Aykrivwassup|Aykrivwassup]] ([[User talk:Aykrivwassup|talk]]) 21:58, May 6, 2020 (EDT)

== This is actually kinda ridiculous. ==

Sorry if I am bringing this up after months, but this has been irking me for a while. From what I can tell, please correct me if I am wrong about anything, the events behind the move are highly questionable.
*Someone moves the page without consensus
*Instead of being immediately moved back, as it should be praxis in these cases, it stays because supposedly it is a very minor alteration (admittedly true, but not the point), and because the game might have updated the spelling in the near future (which didn't happen even after a spirit from Persona 5 Strikers was added to the game).
*Then, for "consistency", the spelling is changed across the entire wiki, again without proper consensus. 
Especially the latter part means that for months we have used wiki wide a spelling that is **not** used anywhere in the actual game that we are covering, again without proper consensus from the editors.
As the spelling "Arsene", without the accent, is the one actually used within Smash, I am proposing that we go back to using that across the wiki.
As a side note, I don't think there is a real preferred spelling in the Persona community; it's just an accented character so the main difference will pretty much be between users that are using an autocorrect (which will spell it with the accent) and users that are not. Which means that we should honestly ignore a community preference that can't actually be gauged and base the argument on a preference between using the spelling provided by Smash or the one provided by later source material. [[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 18:48, March 14, 2021 (EDT)
:Seconding this. I always assumed that some sort of consensus was made on the matter, but if there was none, like you say, then we should certainly look into straightening this out.
:As for my opinion, personally I '''oppose''' the use of the accent across the Wiki, per ''Smash'' in-game and ''Smash'' promotional material, although obviously the modern spelling should be mentioned somewhere in this article. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 00:12, March 15, 2021 (EDT)
::This page was renamed on April Fools last year, so I assumed it was a joke, but nope, it stayed. I also support re-renaming it back to without the accent, partially because that's what Smash uses, partially because typing the accent is unnecessarily complicated on the computer. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 03:44, March 15, 2021 (EDT)
:::We have a redirect to the Arsene page without the diacritic, and I don't otherwise see what the issue is. If the argument is that it's how it's stylised in the game, perhaps you should take a look at [[SmashWiki is not official|this]]. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 08:08, March 15, 2021 (EDT)
::::The main reason why I am even bringing this up at all is that the page was moved without consensus and needs to have an actual discussion. I personally think SW:OFFICIAL gets thrown around a bit too much and sometimes misconstrued, considering that in the policy page it clearly states, and I quote verbatim, to "Prioritize using official names unless a different name is much more widely used". It is a policy that it makes a lot of sense to use for techniques that are (or were, and the legacy community name just stuck) poorly documented or not documented at all by Nintendo official sources, but in this case we are not dealing with an advanced technique but with what is effectively a playable character.
::::Still, if you want to bring up SW:OFFICIAL and community appeal, searching "Arsène" in Jokercord yields 142 results while searching "Arsene" without diacritic yields 21139 results at the time of writing; while if you look in unrelated Discord servers this discrepancy is even greater: in K.Roolcord there are 1205 mentions of "Arsene" and 4 of "Arsène", in Banjocord there are 0(zero) messages using the form "Arsène", in our own server "Arsene" is mentioned 293 times while "Arsène" only 5 times (3 of which are about specifically this page being moved and one being about the literary character). Now, I don't think it is intellectually honest to label it as a conscious community preference when everyone knows it is simply a form of convenience, as English keyboards do not feature the "è" character (I'm happening to write this on a keyboard that does have it and it is making it infinitely more convenient). Still, it does show that even among fans of the series few bother to use the updated spelling in a casual setting. 
::::Honestly both sides of the argument are rooted in appeal to official sources (because for both appealing to community usage is disingenuous), for one the source to consider is the ''Persona'' series and for the other the source to consider is the ''Smash'' series; it sounds like a rhetorical question to ask which one the Smash Wiki should use but it is actually not, I can imagine why someone would prefer the former and if there is actually someone here who does I do encourage them to voice their argument. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 11:31, March 15, 2021 (EDT)

'''Move it back''', and make "Arsene" the standard, as it's more commonly used, in addition to being the spelling used in smash. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 11:34, March 15, 2021 (EDT)

My thoughts: Smash was built around vanilla P5 and not P5R, with the exception of [[Grappling Hook|one thing]]. I don't think it was necessarily in the wrong to update the page name without consensus—there's quite the list of exceptions to what needs consensus—but it's definitely weird, because P5R, which, like other updated games (P3FES, P4G), is, to my knowledge, generally considered to be the "official" version of the game.<br>For now, '''I guess we can move it back''', because it's not actually gonna hurt anything (we have Smash fans here, not Persona fans, so people will look for the Smash name and not the Persona name). In the event of a future Smash game where Joker returns, they'll probably update it to match P5R, in which case we can change it back. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 13:45, March 15, 2021 (EDT)

:The most similar case to this I could find in Smash is the [[Devil Car]], which in the official English release of ''Mother'', released after Smash 4, became the Psycho Car. Since the Psycho Car doesn't appear in Ultimate, as far as Smash is concerned, the name used in the series is still Devil Car. Keeping the diacritic probably makes sense for sections that are about the ''Persona'' games, such as the various "Origin" sections. Likewise should Joker appear in a future Smash game and use the updated Royal spellings, the original spelling should still be kept in pages and sections that are specifically about Ultimate. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 11:53, March 17, 2021 (EDT)
::I 100% agree with Rdrfc's take on the matter. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 14:12, March 17, 2021 (EDT)

I personally don't see much issue with the diacritic, as P5R was technically fixing a spelling error: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars%C3%A8ne_Lupin his namesake is named "Arsène Lupin"]. I'd argue that Smash's misspelling is a coincidence at best; for all we know, the developers could have just saw P5's content and used that. Updating the name alongside P5R, which likely signals that the spelling could be updated at any point, even in a later Smash title, makes sense. I don't see why there should be some weird policy where P5 content uses the correct spelling and Smash uses the wrong spelling, that's just adding natural inconsistency and will only contribute to additional confusion. It's not like these iterations of Arsène are separate entities, he's just has his name spelled wrong. I also don't see why it should be moved back only to get discussed again, this should be more of a "posthumous" discussion for a final verdict. For those who oppose use of accents across the wiki, all I have to say is that [[Pokémon (universe)]] would like a word, as would every single instance where Pokémon is referred to, even in Smash's promotional material. The claim that Smash doesn't use diacritics is blatantly false. If anything, updating the name makes sense for future-proofing; in the case Joker returns in a later game and likely comes with an updated spelling, this discussion will just open up again. Finally, I really don't see why what can be seen as simplification of his name so to not have to use a unicode combination on a keyboard is a valid reason to call "Arsene" a case of "community consensus"...'''keep the page as it is.''' --[[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]] 23:45, March 17, 2021 (EDT)

:Just to clarify I did not claim that there is a community consensus over the spelling, I brought it up specifically to explain how appealing to one (for either side of the argument) is, in my opinion, disingenuous, and get it out of the way. Nor I did claim that diacritics are not used in ''Smash'' in general, just that they are not used for the spelling of Arsene/Arsène. 
:As for future proofing, while I get the sentiment behind it, for all we know Joker may never appear in ''Smash'' again, therefore future proofing for nothing. It's very much a case of putting the carriage before the horse, the way I see it. "Arsene" is a blatant formatting error carried over from the original source material, but generally most gaming wikis will keep such spelling errors until they are corrected in later material, and often continuing to use them specifically when referring to the older games. The argument here is if original game source material post-dating the current Smash game counts as updated sources; my opinion is that it does not, basing it on precedents like the aforementioned Devil Car, and cases like the Giant/Big Goomba where we use either form to refer to their Brawl and Smash 4 appearances, respectively. Then again, those are admittedly more significant that the simple use of a diacritic.
:Anyway, what makes more sense is, in case it is decided to move this back, to future-proof the consensus so that if Joker appears in a future ''Smash'' game the spelling can be updated without another discussion. 
--[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 05:26, March 18, 2021 (EDT)
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 :Anyway, what makes more sense is, in case it is decided to move this back, to future-proof the consensus so that if Joker appears in a future ''Smash'' game the spelling can be updated without another discussion.
 --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 05:26, March 18, 2021 (EDT)
-'''Keep it'''. It's clear Arsène was meant to have the accent marks from the beginning (with Arsène Lupin's name also having one), but didn't have one in the vanilla Persona 5 as that game didn't have accent marks. Also, if I remember correctly, there was another Persona in that game that had an accent mark added in Royal (though the only one I can remember is Célestine, who was added in Royal). [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer</span>]] ([[User talk:Awesomelink234|talk]]) 14:45, April 8, 2021 (EDT)
-:'''Keep the accent'''. As explained above, he is named after Arsène Lupin and didn't have the accent in vanilla Persona 5 because the font didn't support accent marks. Smash probably just used the vanilla Persona 5 formatting because that's how it was when Joker was released and never bothered to change it as his name only appears in tips. Strikers also uses the accent, so it was always meant to be "Arsène" and not "Arsene". [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 16:51, August 5, 2021 (EDT)
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