Talk:Bowser Jr.

Because my edit didn't work (...)

Bowser Jr.'s appearance from NSMBU uses the same Clown Car as NSMBW, the difference being the occasional change in facial expression and punching gloves. The Clown Car in SSB4 features both of these as well. Thus, it's NSMBU Junior. ...a new Nuttais approaching... 16:03, 25 August 2014 (EDT)

No it's not, look at the Clown Car design in SSB4 and then look at it in NSMBWii. That Clown Car has a more docile face (with black eyes) and no other protrusions. Blue Ninjakoopa 16:33, 25 August 2014 (EDT)

The artwork depicting the Clown Car in NSMBU features a different face than in-game, which matches NSMBW's. And NSMBW doesn't use boxing gloves. NSMBU does. ...a new Nuttais approaching... 17:30, 25 August 2014 (EDT)

Design trumps function, and said function isn't an exact copy of the one in NSMBU. The NSMBWii artwork is more deserving of the spot in the infobox because that's the design it uses. Blue Ninjakoopa 19:00, 25 August 2014 (EDT)

Also keep in mind that the NSMBWii Koopa Clown Car design is the most common, appearing in Paper Mario: Sticker Star, Mario Party 9, and Mario & Luigi: Dream Team being used by Bowser Jr. himself. That model is heavily associated with him, not the makeshift NSMBU model. Blue Ninjakoopa 19:03, 25 August 2014 (EDT)

IT'S THE SAME DESIGN. In-game there is no difference between the Clown Car featured in NSMBWii and NSMBU look identical. The only difference in any way shape or form is that he uses boxing gloves in one battle. The artwork, however, features a facial expression that isn't the default face (used instead as the occasional emotion in most of its appearances, and in Paper Mario 2 it's Bowser's car's expression). The model is the exact same. ...a new Nuttais approaching... 21:27, 25 August 2014 (EDT)

Mario Tennis?

Okay, I know it pictures him with a tennis racket, but hear me out here.

The main matter of debate with Bowser Jr.'s artwork is that NSMBW's artwork features the correct facial expression and has no tailfin on the Clown Car, but NSMBU's has most of the features that he uses in battle, and specifically features the boxing gloves in the artwork which is one of the most-used in Smash. So we've been featuring both, with NSMBW's in the infobox and NSMBU's in the description.

But now he's in Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash, with artwork. What's notable here is that he has the NSMBW design Clown Car, but with the NSMBU Boxing Gloves which actually hold/swing the racket and serve the ball while BJ jumps around looking like a goofball. Besides the appearance of the tennis racket, this is exactly what he uses in Smash.

Can we ignore the tennis racket, since this is the only piece of artwork featuring the exact design? Or should we continue to use the half-and-half artwork?

I honestly don't care either way, I think it's fine no matter what, but I thought I'd bring it up. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by a turkey! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 12:26, 9 November 2015 (EST)

hello? ---Preceding unsigned comment added by a turkey! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 16:23, 15 November 2015 (EST)

Bump ---Preceding unsigned comment added by a turkey! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 14:39, 23 November 2015 (EST)

Keep it as is. Tennis isn't really what Bowser Jr. is best known for, it's Super Mario Sunshine, the Junior Clown Car, the paintbrush, and Shadow Mario. We shouldn't prioritize having artwork featuring an ever-so-slightly altered JCC design that's slightly truer to what's in Smash but showing a function that isn't as pertinent to what he's known for. Smashedpotatoes (talk) 15:04, 23 November 2015 (EST)

Seconded; the NSMBW art is fine. Miles (talk) 15:18, 23 November 2015 (EST)

Artwork again >.>

How exactly is the M&L style not accurate to Smash? It has kind of a colorful overlay on it, but so did Wind Waker HD and we used it for Toon Link in place of Wind Waker. There's nothing on the artwork that looks different from his Smash artwork design-wise (except obviously it's 2D, and the hair is less realistic but same goes for NSMBW, so.) ---Preceding unsigned comment added by SANTY CLAWS! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 22:22, 7 December 2015 (EST)

I am not really sure where you are hung up on the art we currently have here. Can you explain? Serpent King 22:28, 7 December 2015 (EST)

Yeah, what's the problem? This is really just redundant and plain common sense. Bowser Jr. is not typically in that art style. Yeah, most recent appearance, so what? His 3D renders are reflective of how he looks in Smash. It's not like we're having M&L Mario and Luigi represented in that art style here either. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 22:32, 7 December 2015 (EST)

I'm an artsy person and I don't like NSMBW's (or most other Wii games') style. The poses are bland and they didn't pay enough attention to put much detail into the characters' appearance like they do with the newer Wii U/3DS artworks where Mario's overalls have seams and the M on his hat looks sewn on (which, unfortunately, also means fewer characters get artwork because it takes more time and is harder to do). That combined with the fact that it's a relatively old image makes any image seem more preferable.

That said, Mario and Luigi have more preferable (in my artsy eye's view) images. These are 3D and amazingly detailed and high quality. Bowser Jr's artwork, while not 3D, is a much more appropriate pose for the character and demonstrates his main trait (childish villainy) much better than him just blandly pointing.

The art style is not a huge difference from typical Mario games (besides the aforementioned 2D and hardly noticeable colorful overlay) and shows his character much better (which Miles notably pushed for with Shulk's artwork), while still covering the Smash-important detail (the Junior Clown Car, which also happens to make it more preferable than Shulk's Monado-less artwork).

But more than that, I don't see why it needed to be removed, given the lack of a problem with it and the fact that it's more recent, which we do usually push for (I know the policy failed but it's still a pretty nice guideline). ---Preceding unsigned comment added by SANTY CLAWS! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 22:47, 7 December 2015 (EST)

I get you as in yeah, the new artwork looks way nicer but your argument doesn't fall within the purposes of this wiki. You being artsy and not liking the current image has no bearing either. I mean if you like this artwork so much, save it on your computer or whatever devices you have and admire it from there. I do that with stuff I like lol Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 22:53, 7 December 2015 (EST)

That still doesn't explain why we can't use it. It covers the basics needed for artwork: featuring a design Smash is based off of (which is just normal Junior in his clown car), is recent, shows off his personality, and looks much better than any other possible image. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by SANTY CLAWS! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 23:08, 7 December 2015 (EST)

Do you not get it? In what art style do you typically see Bowser Jr. in? 3D. What art style do you typically see Mario characters in? 3D. The most recognizable appearance of Mario characters in general? 3D. You're overthinking it dude. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:15, 7 December 2015 (EST)

I don't see why 3D matters so much? Particularly when the only 3D one just a terrible image altogether and the 2D one covers every base. (Also the current one isn't transparent. Just adding to the already large list of flaws.) It would be like putting Link's Ocarina of Time model on his page instead of his artwork just because it's 3D. It's horribly low quality, but it's 3D! ---Preceding unsigned comment added by SANTY CLAWS! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 23:17, 7 December 2015 (EST)

No here it's a 3D render/official artwork. Where'd you get "terrible image" from? Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:20, 7 December 2015 (EST)

I repeat:

The pose is bland.

It is overall low-quality.

It has little-to-no detail on any of the character.

It is a very old image (relatively speaking).

Image is non-transparent.

---Preceding unsigned comment added by SANTY CLAWS! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 23:25, 7 December 2015 (EST)

At this point you're just throwing opinions which don't really add much strength at all to your arguments. Bland, subjective. Low-quality, wrong. Little-to-no detail, wrong, what else do you want from it? Very old, doesn't matter if it works for now. Lacking transparency isn't a flaw, it's just something it doesn't have. Like, you're being really nitpicky, I'm just about to drop this cuz this is plain ridiculous to me. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:30, 7 December 2015 (EST)

I like the M&L Bowser Jr. pic, maybe not as much as you do, but putting it as Bowser Jr.'s main picture on his mainspace page ain't in line with this wiki. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:32, 7 December 2015 (EST)

(edit conflict) Bland isn't subjective, and, again, a more relevant image of Shulk was thrown aside to provide personality. This page isn't for his Smash appearance, it's for his character, and the representative image should show his character. The current one does not.

Low-quality isn't wrong; put it at full size. The edges blend together, the shadows don't fade properly, and the shading is just plain horrific.

I want [this beauty]. Or [the closest thing we have]. It's smaller, but you can tell that the hair is more properly drawn and the bandanna actually looks like paint instead of just weird smudges.

It really doesn't work though, and, again, newer is more preferable.

Transparency is always a plus. That's why we threw away those high-quality alternate costume images.

(updated response) Out of line is completely inaccurate and really just dumb. It's perfect representation for his Smash appearances, and is much better representation for the character as a whole. That's what this page is for. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by SANTY CLAWS! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 23:36, 7 December 2015 (EST)

Yeah, this going nowhere, neither of us are budging, anyone else want to put in any input? Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 23:39, 7 December 2015 (EST)

I personally do not see what's wrong with the image we have. That it's old and that it's bland is irrelevant, that it's low quality is false, that it's non-transparent is not an issue, that it "has little-to-no detail on any of the character" doesn't make sense. Serpent King 23:48, 7 December 2015 (EST)

Again, bland isn't irrelevant- this is a page about Bowser Jr., and the image should represent the character. Old is moreso but still, newer is more preferable. And also again, take a look at the image. Low-quality is not false. The shading, shadows, paint, and hair are all horrible looking, and it's pixel-y on places like the bandanna and the hair. Transparency, like newness, is preferable. And the detail is, compare the Mario image I keep linking to that Bowser Jr. image. They put a lot of detail into Mario's artwork (making the shoes bumpy, the M look sewn on, the gloves look like cloth), but Bowser Jr.'s is the basics (the paint has no different texture from the bandanna itself, his hair just has ugly lines through it, everything is flat, etc.). The 2D artwork isn't much more detailed, but the hair, bandanna, and Clown Car have textures, so.

That said, I didn't bring this to the talk page to say the old image is bad. I brought it here to ask why the new image isn't good. Like on Toon Link and Skull Kid's pages, we go by "if it has the right design and isn't a weird specific thing or hidden/cut off we use the most recent image". (The other M&LPJ artwork is a little more specific; Mario, Peach, and Bowser are clearly looking at something, Luigi is holding the book, etc.) ---Preceding unsigned comment added by SANTY CLAWS! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 23:55, 7 December 2015 (EST)

For me it is first and foremost about the art style. Bowser Jr. in SSB4 is a lot, a lot closer to the NSMBW design visually than the M&L artwork. It's the same reason I wouldn't use official Mario art of the characters in the "flat" design they've used at various points, since it's less accurate of a match to Smash when something more accurate is available. The NSMBW art matches design aesthetic, exact design of the Junior Clown Car, and even includes him leaning out of it as he does often in SSB4. It's from within the last console gen, too, so it's not like it's horribly out of date either. Miles (talk) 00:06, 8 December 2015 (EST)

Yes, the real meat of the matter is that the current artwork used is most reflective of Bowser Jr. in Smash Bros. The one proposed is not as much due to its art style and aesthetic. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 04:51, 8 December 2015 (EST)

But for them we have something that can successfully cover the design while still covering the character too. For Bowser Jr., we have something that's very slightly (and unimportantly) different from Smash, but very relevant to his character (also, he's leaning out of the Clown Car in my image? Also why does that matter, like, at all? :P) The PJ image matches the exact design of the clown car, even includes him leaning, and shows off his personality much better. It's more of a lesser of two evils thing I guess. Is it more important to show them 3D or show them as a character?

I would say character, since this is his character page, not his Smash page. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by SANTY CLAWS! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 11:57, 8 December 2015 (EST)

The point of the silly "leaning" statement was that there's not really a significant difference in "characterization" shown between the two pieces of artwork, and one looks significantly more like the style used in Smash without any real downside. Miles (talk) 13:16, 8 December 2015 (EST)

Characterization in general is not overly relevant to Smash (as only the Smash Taunt-ers and special Victory Pose-ers get any personality at all), but given that this is a page about Bowser Jr. as a character it is relevant to this page. I was under the impression that there was supposed to be a rather clear line between character pages and fighter pages, and the character pages should demonstrate the character. (Also, "leaning" is not characterization. ...At all.) ---Preceding unsigned comment added by SANTY CLAWS! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 13:30, 8 December 2015 (EST)

There is a clear line, and images with similar art styles don't exactly blur it. Also, think about it. This is a Smash wiki, there's always going to be a slant towards Smash Bros., even in the character pages. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 16:25, 8 December 2015 (EST)

And the thing is, is that the slant is okay because it's a Smash wiki. We have interwiki links for more specific information on characters. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 17:20, 8 December 2015 (EST)

ssbu

wtf is with his final smash? gooping the screen is worthless, hurts you at least as much as an opponent