Forum:Metaknight's hidden flaw (very well hidden indeed)

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I just realized metaknight has one very well hidden flaw. His sheild roll is really good. So is his ledge roll and his wake up roll (when your down kissing the floor, roll to get up). BUT his Eukemi (anti faceplant, floor tech) roll is USELESS. The tech is good but the follow up roll is PATHETIC. However, that isn't much of a problem. Since only a tech chase+ spike combo takes advantage of this *cough*zeroSuitsamus*cough, excuse me,*cough*IceClimbers*COUGH*. Humor aside, ZZS dominatrix Stun Combo and (especially) the ice climber avalanche combo devastate MK's pathetic Eukemi. This is because his floor tech roll (Eukemi) is slow, long duration, moves a short distance, a bit of ending lag, and almost unoticable invinciblity frames at the moment of activation. Making it SUPER easy to tech chase (no guessing required). If you need me to spell it out, MK is super vulnerable to combos that involve tech chasing. You see if you don't eukemi and you faceplant you can't roll away immidiatly and your vulnerable until you roll to get up. That's the point of an Eukemi, to tech roll before that happens. As much as I love MK, his eukemi does not do its job... but then again people don't eukemi that often so I guess sakurai distributed his lag in the right places...or did he :3?!?TheLegendTamer (talk) 17:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

If you keep making discoveries like this, our heads shall explode from pwnsomeness. - GalaxiaD ^Talk 22:57, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Nice discovery Cree318 (talk) 15:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Let's be honest for a moment. Is this really going to make a big enough difference to swing a game against Meta Knight? I think not. Semicolon (talk) 15:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC) Nope, but its probably the first flaw I have seen that actually matter in competitive play. - Hatake91 (talk) 18:59, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Uh huh. Okay. This is why it won't matter: It's a tech chase spike combo. How often (a) is there going to be an opportunity to cause Meta Knight to tech? (b) how often is there going to be an opportunity to tech chase Meta Knight? (c) how often is someone playing going to be playing characters able to take advantage of this? (aka ZSS sucks, and the Ice Climbers are hardly viable) (d) how often is it actually going to be in a good position (near the ledge) (e) how often is this going to actually be pulled off? (f) even if this works, and becomes significant, zomg all Meta Knight players have to do is not tech, and instead do the, as OP said, awesome wake up roll.

No, it won't make a difference. Semicolon (talk) 20:36, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Uh you guys obviously didn't read a couple of my other threads, my ice climber avalanche combo grabs with the primary, down/foward throw, then immidiatly after spiked by secondary climber. The Primary ice climber is ready to tech chase even while the secondary is spiking (especially after down throw) the sad fact is that if you don't tech, there is a small window of vulnerability BEFORE you can wake up roll. The primary ice climber can just use the first hit of his standard combo, and the secondary can grab you during the stun after landing chain grab back, rinse lather repeat, OR instead start a desynced ice shot tumble combo. The problem is that MK's tech roll is more like air dodge to cancel landing lag followed by a forced walk because it's THAT pathetic. The previously mentioned follow ups would still work during his tech roll with none of the usual guesswork involved tech chasing. These couple of facts can shut down MK and some others legally.204.69.115.54 17:40, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Nice points. - GalaxiaD ^Talk 22:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Anyone find major flaws for Lucas?@@@ Koopa Klaus 22:33, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

No, they're not nice points. Given a short period of vulnerability, there's a choice that has to be made. Either the IC's have to choose to tech chase, or take advantage of a MK not teching because of the precise timing required to execute your ridiculous combo. It's a fifty/fifty. Then consider that additionally, a direction must be selected due to complicated factors involving damage/terrain etc. Then consider that this is also only viable when Nana is alive. Then consider that the IC's suck. Then consider that I don't buy your combo being effective due to nasty start up lag on that fair. Then consider that you also have to have the IC's desynced (if MK allows that to even happen), which means Nana will be doing a grab animation herself, slowing her already laggy fair down to even get this to happen. It's far too conditional to have any bearing on any game whatsoever. Fail. Semicolon (talk) 04:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Now those are some nice points. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 04:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

You obviously have no idea how the ICs can cg with Dthrow>Fair. IC desynching is childs play for an IC player, its really not that hard. ICs dont suck, they have the best grab game out of the whole cast. At the beginning of the match, MK will almost always approach with a fair, Shuttle Loop etc. If the ICs get a grab when the game starts due to ICs shieldgrabbing, Dthrow>Fair becomes a valid followup. No MK player would not tech that, knowing its coming up. IC Dash grabs arent slow, and if they were, try dash canceling to a grab. Those were really biased points. JtM =^] (talk) 04:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

The bias is irrelevant. You have a bias too, it's just in a different direction. I admit I don't have a perfect conception of this silly little combo, but I will tell you this, beyond a doubt: his little 'flaw' is way too insignificant to make a dent on a good MK player, much less an entire matchup, and that's the God's honest truth. Semicolon (talk) 20:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with JtM. The IC's don't suck; they're high tier for a reason. Their CG's are deadly and near impossible to escape. You know, all this talk about the IC's advantages over MK make me believe that MK's found another neutral match-up. - GalaxiaD ^Talk 20:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Besides some slow moves and a short-ranged tether, not really. - GalaxiaD ^Talk 22:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

¬_¬ Koopa Klaus 22:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Guys, just remember that the IC's aren't the only ones who can tech chase. ZSS was already mentioned (though MK kills her recovery), and even a decent G&W should be able to tech chase after a D-throw. Plus, G&W's D-Throw is straight down, therefore getting rid of the damage and terrain variables. Cheezperson {talk}stuff 04:41, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Forgot to login last time (time was short) btw he is not only vulnerable after getting knocked down to the ground, but during that vulnerability he is non responsive (stun) and cannot wake up roll for that period, enough for a desynced alternating ice shot tumble to start (I mentioned that), or rinse lather and repeat by have IC 1 executing the first hit of his neutral combo and IC 2 performing ice shot/ other weak attack to cause stun (and a forced wake up) then grab with IC 1, This will happen if MK doesn't tech roll after the Dthrow>Fair spike (which if not interfered beforehand from an outside source, is garunteed an easy unavoidable spike directly in front of IC 1 who is ready to do what I said). The BIG issue is that his Tech is so slow, so long duration, so short distance traveled and only a tinnnyyyy window of invincibility during the first couple of frames, that just about anyone can grab him after or slightly charge a smash attack, and still hit during or after during the lag of the tech, and if you can't do this YOU NEED GLASSES, becauses it's that hard to mess up. Btw I'm not out to screw MK I MAIN MK, how do you think I found this out... I look at the small details that do nothing by themselves, then exploit them in combinations to create combos that shut down opponents and rack up damage. Oh what I mentioned above is legal, because it's not that annoying IC ChainGrab, it's a grab>spike>attack+grab/tech chase+repeat. I post these things for a reason, they have GREAT potential over a match when exploited as a surprise, if you guys didn't notice what these things can do, do you think your foe will? With that said using most of my techniques at the right time as a surprise can change the out come because these things helped me and my friends get better and I'm sure it'll help you all. Truth is I only put small fraction of what I know here on smash wiki I just don't have enough time to do it all, so if want a combo you probably have never seen before (that works, and some do more than do damage they can set your opponent up for follow ups or into REALLY dangerous situations *cough*spike*cough*) just ask.TheLegendTamer (talk) 17:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Aren't you the guy that said that you can control Smash Bros with your mind? I'm not buying a word you say. I will say it again: this thing that you say is so huge in affect MK is in fact, incredibly small because, even given your assumptions about the efficacy of this technique/combo/whatever, MK's pros far outweigh anything the IC's can throw out there! That's the truth. You've failed to address any of my legitimate criticisms to this point, and the ones you have addressed are few, leaving the rest standing nice and tall. I don't need to restate all of my arguments. I have far better things to do. Adieu. Semicolon (talk) 20:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm a little confused by all of this. First, I've yet to see how this will become a huge deal in the competitive scene. It would at best allow a player to take a single stock of an unsuspecting player before they catch on and stop this nonsense. Second, these claims of bias are completely unfounded. Yes, both parties are trying to support their arguments, but ad hominum circumstancal is a logical fallacy. Look it up. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 00:22, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

(to Clarinet Hawk) Better things to do like realize I'm not against that MK pros outweigh his cons. I didn't state this because I'm targeting him, and further more what I said is true, terrible eukemi = weakness. No argument can state that (Terrible Eukemi = weakness) = false. Btw I said "Ness+Lucas Final smash has a random number generator to select the X coordinate for the fireballs which IN THEORY should be affected by ones own PK (if your own is strong enough)" when I found someone who seemed to have it he managed to affect the spawn coordinates so that the fireball's x = enemy x roughly 70% higher than the usual. Which leads me to believe that Ness+Lucas who have an exaggerated PK ability have their final smashes that can be influenced by someone who has above average PK ability. I find that to obvious to be coincidence, and that the programmers of ness and lucas made a final smash that in theory could be controlled by one's own PK. NOW THAT is an likely and interesting possibility (aka fun fact if deemed true).

Okay, now this is an interesting proposition. I'm going to deal with your 'Eukemi' point, and then the fun will begin. Okay, yes, if Meta Knight has a bad 'eukemi' then it is not in his favor. That does not, however, make it a weakness. A weakness would be him not possessing a 'eukemi' at all. Comparably, MK's 'eukemi' may not in fact be good, but it is a detail. Now, I'll force-feed you an analogy. If I'm dueling some guy who has an AK-47, and I have a .38 Special, we have the same weakness--bullets. However, I am disadvantaged, it is clear. Same can be said for MK. He has a eukemi, but it's a bad eukemi. Okay. So? It will have almost no bearing, because unlike what gun I'm wielding, it isn't a big deal. There are dozens of things I can think of that are more important to a character, and dozens of ways MK can overcome it, and dozens of characters (yes, literally dozens) that he doesn't even have to worry about it from.

Now for your controlling Smash with your 'own PK' as you say. I'm glad I got a second chance to destroy your opinion on this; I never should have let it go in the first place. Let's throw away that silly label first. One's 'own PK' means controlling Smash Brothers with your mind, because 'PK' means 'Psychokinesis' which parses to psych meaning 'mind' (o is a stem-extender) and kinesis meaning 'move' or 'motion'. Thus, we have PK meaning moving something with one's mind. What you are proposing is using some faculty of the brain to, in fact, move something with your mind. In this case, you are proposing to move Ness and Lucas' Final Smash lightening bolts. How many languages must I say 'NO. YOU CAN'T. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.' in? First off, let's assume 'PK' is some form of ESP, because they're basically two names for the same thing. Then I can say that ESP has been thoroughly debunked by every scientist who has ever had the displeasure of having to entertain such preposterous notions. So basically, ESP doesn't exist, and so if ESP=PK, then PK doesn't either. Was that so hard? Now I'll take a hammer to the other side of the equation--Smash Bros. Let me give you a sample of what Smash Bros actually looks like, in the real world: 001100011011010101001100101100101011011011. Get the picture? Binary. There is NOTHING that the ESP-less brain can do to change ANYTHING about that. Did you ever, for a moment, entertain chance as how your sorry butt was getting kicked by Ness/Lucas' final smash? Did you ever entertain the proposition that perhaps the FS covers the whole damn screen and thus people are bound to get destroyed by it? Now, you say something silly about a random number generation being affected by one's own PK. That's garbage. How do you know it's a random generator? How do you know it isn't the game pulling on a dozen or so prepared patterns? It seems clear that the game separates the stage because you never have all of the bolts hitting one side and leaving the other unmolested. So no, it isn't strictly a random number generator. It would be impressive if this individual managed to get all the lightning bolts to hit on even one side of the stage. Problem is, it won't happen without hacking, unless this PK can now flip the game coding too. That would making it something impressive indeed! Turns out that there are 3 or 4 different ways the game developers could have decided to set the lightning bolts. How do you know they didn't program a disposition into them to try and hit the opponents as it stands? Who's to say the base-line for being hit is 50%? I would say it's a good deal higher, considering factors like size of character, stage, size of the bolts etc. 70% could be completely unremarkable! You haven't done research to determine what the baseline for being hit it is. Therefore, any conclusion you draw is completely invalid! For that matter, how did you manage to measure the '70%' over someone else's? Does this person have an 'ESP' measurement that it could be juxtaposed against? Didn't think so. Fail. Fail. Double Fail. Triple Fail. Sextouple Fail. Semicolon (talk) 21:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• Ahen* now that I got that straitened out from now on (because of clarinethawk's numerous complaints to me) I will NOT be making anymore threads on small details. I will put a list of the small discoveries on my user talk and save breakthrough discoveries for the forum. I will also be answering questions and posting combos to those who ask in my user talk. I only have 30 minutes or less a day to post, so this would be more convenient for Smash wiki, its members, and me to do this. Times up...TheLegendTamer (talk) 17:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Smart Semicolon is smaaaaart... Koopa Klaus 21:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)