Talk:Birdo

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Step away from this and give yourself a chance to calm down. '''[[User:Serpent King|Serpent]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|King]]''' 20:23, 8 August 2018 (EDT)

== Gender part 2 ==

2 years ago, a very heated discussion took place here regarding what we should list Birdo's gender as. Birdo's gender was referenced on a separate discussion on Sheik's article, which reminded me about this issue, and after thinking about it I think it's time we brought up the discussion again.

As you may recall, I was one of the main opposers of the original, however '''I now believe that Birdo is female''', regardless of whether or not she is trans, which I doubt Nintendo will ever have the guts to address, since they'll receive a large backlash either way. I suspect that another major voice of opposition in the original discussion will also have changed their stance on the issue, and thus this discussion is definitely worth bringing up again.

Essentially, the case for listing Birdo's gender as female goes like this: In english versions of games at least, she is portrayed as female and referred to using female pronouns. My understanding is that some Japanese sources still refer to her as a man who thinks she is a woman, which if you know anything about gender is a contradiction in itself, but SmashWiki is an English language Wiki, and thus should take the stance that the English versions of the games take, that Birdo is female. The issue of whether or not Birdo is trans is irrelevant, as trans women are nevertheless women. More abstractly, there's also the matter of the Wiki's policy on gender identity regarding smashers, which is that our articles should reflect the gender identities of the smashers in question. Birdo may be a fictional character, but if we wanted to be consistent with our stance on gender identity, we should still treat Birdo the same way.

Now, the main argument for the opposition is that since this is a Super Smash Bros. Wiki, and since the Super Smash Bros. series has been rather vague on the matter, we should not list Birdo's gender as female on her article. The problem with this is that character articles typically follow the official canon of the character, even if contradictory information appears in trophy descriptions and the like (which is the only place a contradiction of Birdo being female occurs, and even then only in Brawl), because trophy descriptions are known for their goofs, and to suggest that Birdo should be treated any differently simply doesn't make any sense in my opinion.

Before I end this off, I would like to urge anyone who plans on leaving their thoughts on this to remain civil, as the discussion got rather out of hand the last time, and this became rather counter-productive. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|'''Alex''']] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|'''Weeb''']]'' 19:09, November 12, 2020 (EST)

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@@ Line 126: / Line 126: @@
 Step away from this and give yourself a chance to calm down. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 20:23, 8 August 2018 (EDT)
+== Gender part 2 ==
+years ago, a very heated discussion took place here regarding what we should list Birdo's gender as. Birdo's gender was referenced on a separate discussion on Sheik's article, which reminded me about this issue, and after thinking about it I think it's time we brought up the discussion again.
+As you may recall, I was one of the main opposers of the original, however '''I now believe that Birdo is female''', regardless of whether or not she is trans, which I doubt Nintendo will ever have the guts to address, since they'll receive a large backlash either way. I suspect that another major voice of opposition in the original discussion will also have changed their stance on the issue, and thus this discussion is definitely worth bringing up again.
+Essentially, the case for listing Birdo's gender as female goes like this: In english versions of games at least, she is portrayed as female and referred to using female pronouns. My understanding is that some Japanese sources still refer to her as a man who thinks she is a woman, which if you know anything about gender is a contradiction in itself, but SmashWiki is an English language Wiki, and thus should take the stance that the English versions of the games take, that Birdo is female. The issue of whether or not Birdo is trans is irrelevant, as trans women are nevertheless women. More abstractly, there's also the matter of the Wiki's policy on gender identity regarding smashers, which is that our articles should reflect the gender identities of the smashers in question. Birdo may be a fictional character, but if we wanted to be consistent with our stance on gender identity, we should still treat Birdo the same way.
+Now, the main argument for the opposition is that since this is a Super Smash Bros. Wiki, and since the Super Smash Bros. series has been rather vague on the matter, we should not list Birdo's gender as female on her article. The problem with this is that character articles typically follow the official canon of the character, even if contradictory information appears in trophy descriptions and the like (which is the only place a contradiction of Birdo being female occurs, and even then only in Brawl), because trophy descriptions are known for their goofs, and to suggest that Birdo should be treated any differently simply doesn't make any sense in my opinion.
+Before I end this off, I would like to urge anyone who plans on leaving their thoughts on this to remain civil, as the discussion got rather out of hand the last time, and this became rather counter-productive. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:09, November 12, 2020 (EST)