Editing User talk:CSR/Best Character Player Watchlist

==Some other players to consider==
Decided to take a look at your list, and there are a few players I would say you should consider for the position as well:
*{{Sm|Meme}} for Yoshi. The best Yoshi player in Mexico with several PGR player wins. His results are honestly more consistent than Suarez.
*{{Sm|Bedgar}} for Inkling. While Space has had the better peaks, Bedgar has the better wins. Plus, he has the 17th at an American S-tier, something that Space currently lacks.
*I would still personally put {{Sm|NickC}} over Fatality due to NickC's better peaks, but they're honestly both at the same level.
*{{Sm|Pandarian}} for PT, or should at least be noted. They're probably on the same level as Ned but still plays PT to this day. If you're noting former best players, you should note Tweek as well.
*{{Sm|Munekin}} for Ryu. Has better results than Vendetta, who only occasionally uses Ryu.
*{{Sm|Mekos}} for Lucas, due to his better consistency and peaks than ChocoTaco.
*{{Sm|Ly}} for Corrin. Ke-ya may have the better win with Shuton, but in my opinion a solo-Corrin who has placed well at nationals should be noted over another player who now rarely uses Corrin
Admittedly, it is very, very difficult to say who is the definitive best player in the world for several characters, so I may have missed a few as well. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 14:22, July 15, 2021 (EDT)

:While you're right for most of your statements, you seem to be missing something in my opinion.
:I did mention Tweek in PT section. However, it seems that Tweek hardly uses PT in tournaments, so I had to add that he rarely uses PT. Mekos seems to be inactive in offline nowadays, so I went for ChocoTaco as the best Lucas player in the world. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mekos' current results come only from online tourneys, while Choco attended InfinityCon as the recent offline tournament.) Even though Pandarian is an excellent PT player, I felt that Ned outperforms Pandarian in terms of placements and performances as a PT main. That's why I went for Ned in place of Pandarian as the best PT player in the world.
:Yes, like you said, sometimes it's difficult to tell who is the best character player in the world, which is the reason why I omitted some characters on this list. If you see the problems in my list, my statements and reasons behind my pick, then you can add yours and edit my list. [[User:CSR|CSR]] ([[User talk:CSR|talk]]) 18:09, July 15, 2021 (EDT)
::Oh I wasn't planning on changing your page. These are mostly my opinions and I apologize if I came off as really forceful. If you want me to explain my points that you pointed out, I'll be willing to give them.
::Speaking of opinions, I do have a recommendation to your chart. If you want, you can add more columns where you could state other players you believe to be the best or were formerly the best, then state why you believe your current choice fits better. It's something you have been doing, and it's honestly pretty interesting seeing someone else's view on this. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 21:44, July 15, 2021 (EDT)
:::That also reminds me. If you want you can do a format similar to [[User:Cookies and Creme/Smash 4 Opinions#Best Player of Each Character|what I did here]]. It's a bit outdated since I did this around the time Smash 4 died, but it can probably be useful. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 21:51, July 15, 2021 (EDT)

::::I see. That can be helpful in my project. Actually, I knew that you would leave comments on my "Best Character Mains" draft, so I was thinking of how I was supposed to comment on your statements. And your list is far detailed than mine, so I understand your reaction on mine. [[User:CSR|CSR]] ([[User talk:CSR|talk]]) 01:30, July 16, 2021 (EDT)

Cleaning up some of the notable player sections, and had another one you could consider.
*{{Sm|Yei}} for Meta Knight. Has the better national and PGR-player wins, but hasn't/can't travel outside of Latin America which may limit results. Also plays a multitude of other characters but he mainly uses this character. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 00:32, July 18, 2021 (EDT)

Since you're a bit troubled with Little Mac, I'd recommend either {{Sm|Tarakotori}} or {{Sm|Kwaz}}; the former has a few PGR'd wins while the latter has very consistent placements at regionals. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 23:33, August 11, 2021 (EDT)
:Thanks for suggestion! Yes, I was troubled with Little Mac, because he is one of the unpopular choices in the current meta. Before accepting your suggestion, I was thinking of {{Sm|Peanut}} as he is the current active Little Mac player who constantly attends in some tourneys. Furthermore, it is hard to tell who is the best character player in the world if that character is unpopular in the meta. (LMac and Banjo, for example) [[User:CSR|CSR]] ([[User talk:CSR|talk]]) 23:44, August 11, 2021 (EDT)
::Yeah, Banjo is a hard one. I think {{Sm|Brood}} has the best results and wins with Banjo at the moment but even then it's not that great. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 00:07, August 12, 2021 (EDT)

Not looking to influence your opinions or anything but wanted to mention that Ron isn't really inactive. He's pretty involved online and has [https://twitter.com/maedakun2525/status/1425764306373668870?s=19 this] coming up. His work just prevents him from attending regular offline competitions. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 16:32, August 12, 2021 (EDT)
:We'll see how he does in that tournament. Only then I'll determine whether if he's one of the best or not. [[User:CSR|CSR]] ([[User talk:CSR|talk]]) 17:03, August 12, 2021 (EDT)
::That's cool if your interested in japanese player online results you can always check their smashmate profiles. One note, smashmate doesn't distinguish between losing and DQs and their format is single elimination. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 17:05, August 12, 2021 (EDT)
Throwing my two cents out there and gonna suggest Yoshidora for Yoshi. He placed 5th at Kagaribi 4, the highest placing of a Yoshi player (solo or otherwise) at a supermajor, along with upsetting several players (Choco, Lea, Eim, and Atelier) to achieve this. He also has wins over Kuro, Abadango, and tk3 as well. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 19:26, August 12, 2021 (EDT)

== "The current best player in Japan" ==

Just throwing my two cents out there, but Proto is most certainly '''''not''''' the current best player in Japan, even with his recent win at Double Down. His best placing at a Japanese major all year is '''7th'''.

acola's 2022 results are objectively better than his, especially within Japan itself (his ''lowest'' placing is '''4th''', plus acola has also won a major in North America); there's a reason why acola was 4th on the newest OrionRank. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 09:31, July 15, 2022 (EDT)

== Peanut ==

Also out of curiosity, what made you think Peanut is currently the beat Mac. And you even put Tarakotori as former. You think he is inactive or something? [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 11:24, July 15, 2022 (EDT)

==Ken==
Kinda saw this while looking through recent changes, but AndresFn hasn't really been using much Ken as of recent; most of his best wins and placements have been with Terry. At the same time, takera is ranked top 50 on LumiRank and is the only Ken ranked there, and placing 13th is already better than the 2 majors that Vendetta has placed. It's fine thinking Vendetta could be one of the best Ken players at the moment, but it really seems odd you dismiss takera as the best Ken player after a placement that quite frankly isn't even bad. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 01:33, September 4, 2023 (EDT)

== Some suggestions ==

I have a couple of suggestions for the page
Rep change ideas
* Wii Fit: {{Sm|Oolong|USA}}, with varun and John Numbers as the former best reps
* Ganondorf: {{Sm|Higachan|Japan}}, with Major and Rickles as the former best reps
* Aegis: {{Sm|Shuton|Japan}}, with Sparg0 as the former best rep
* Sephiroth doesn't really have many active players, would consider moving to where Mewtwo is
* Meta Knight: {{Sm|Metara|Japan}}, with Abadango and Yei being the former best
* Ike: Tora has now travelled to the USA, and so the star can be removed
* Pit: RaZe has travelled to Europe before to play in Ultimate Wanted 4, so his star can also be removed
* Samus: Despite being less active after the start of 2024, to my knowledge Yaura is currently widely considered the best Samus over Sisqui, though Sisqui is still in contention
* Isabelle: {{Sm|Jaka|Switzerland}} or kept rather than Axel and Nery
* Pichu: As of 2024, {{Sm|yone_pi|Japan}} is currently considered the best Pichu in the world by ranking (though NaetorU is still in contention)
* Sheik: As of 2024, {{Sm|WebbJP|USA}} is currently considered the best Sheik rather than Eim

I also noticed the Mii characters are all missing. As of the time of this post, {{Sm|KID|France}} is the best Mii Brawler, with Rizeasu formerly being considered the best, {{Sm|Capitancito|Dominican Republic}} is the best Gunner and the best Swordfighter is unknown as, much like M2, it's not a popular character.

Could it also be worth adding a column for other notable reps of the characters rather than having them listed in the 'Former Best' column? (i.e. a section where you can add players that are in contention with the current best players, such as Onin for Steve, Neo for Corrin, Sisqui/Yaura for Samus, Kaninabe for Fox, MkLeo for Meta Knight etc. or other active reps of the character that are notable (e.g. Ball for King K. Rool, Sinji for Pac-Man, Scend for Ness, BONK! and MkLeo for Meta Knight etc.)

Another minor nitpick, WaDi was banned rather than being inactive. Could it also be worth adding some symbol to put next to players on these lists that are currently banned from competition, such as WaDi, Armadillo and Skyjay? Could it also be worth adding some kind of symbol for inactive players, such as T3 DOM and ZAKI?

For the 'former best' column, could it also be worth updating to change the list from other notable reps to who the best was before? A lot of the column is correct in that case, but I'd also like to suggest the following:
* Palutena's former best rep was Nairo
* Corrin's former best reps were MkLeo and Ly
* Inkling's former best rep was Cosmos
* Sephiroth's former best reps were Tweek and KEN
I can't think of too many more currently, but here's what I have off the top of my head

Hope these suggestions help

[[User:PurpleCoffinMan|PurpleCoffinMan]] ([[User talk:PurpleCoffinMan|talk]]) 09:08, December 30, 2024 (EST)



:While I agree with some of your opinions, I have different opinions on some of your suggestions, such as:

:*Ganondorf: Komegura and Major are considered to be the best Ganondorf players in the world as far as I know. 
:*Sephiroth: Even though Tweek and KEN uses him as a counterpick, he has couple of best players and I consider M4E being one of them. He uses G&W nowadays so we'll see.
:*Samus: Yaura wasn't just "less active"; he missed most tournaments throughout the second LumiRank 2024 season, while Sisqui placed in top 8 in tournaments and won some European tournaments throughout the second season. That's the reason why Yaura was in former best and Sisqui is in the current best. I'll put Yaura back once he comes back to the competitive scene and becomes active like Sisqui does.
:*Pichu: Yone_pi did a great job as a Pichu main but I think NaetorU's feat is also notable in this season. At this rate, there aren't the definitive best Pichu right now, so I'll put Yone_pi as one of the best in the future.
:*Isabelle: Definitely Jaka. Kept used Isabelle too, but he didn't use her as much as Villager, so Jaka wins it.
:*Sheik: I once suggested that too, but Eim's achievement as a Sheik main currently outshines that of WebbJP's (as pointed out by many others in SmashWiki) , so I just put him as the best Sheik for now. Plus, Webb has somewhat mediocre results than Eim, but that's not just him given how Sheik lacks significant kill options if her players are not aggressive enough.

:And for former rep sections, I indeed added them, but I removed them later on, so I prevent my posts from being flooded with former rep sections. Plus, players like Nairo aren't seen in competitive scenes, so I had to omit them.

:All other suggestions will be considered to add in my list. Thanks for suggestions, though. [[User:CSR|CSR]] ([[User talk:CSR|talk]]) 10:58, December 30, 2024 (EST)

::Thanks for reading the suggestions! I'd like to add that I suggested Webb because he's more active compared to Eim and has better recent results to my knowledge. Eim obviously does win out in lifetime achievements though, he's just not comparatively very active. 
::It might come down that Sephiroth's current best rep is Reno as he's the most active with the character and has the best recent results. Otherwise it would likely be a conversation between M4E and {{Sm|Sriks|Australia}} for the best rep, though Sriks isn't as active. 
::It's also worth noting that {{Sm|Jdizzle|Australia}} is missing from Young Link's 'former best'/notes columns, and I believe that he is very much still in contention for the best yink in the world.
::For Mii Swordfighter, it might currently be {{Sm|Shissho|Japan}} or {{Sm|Erin|USA}} that are the best. For Mewtwo, I think it's probably {{Sm|Anbil|Norway}} or {{Sm|SUZUNE|Japan}}.
::I'd like to also suggest that Link's best representative is {{Sm|Kyon|Japan}} rather than VinS or Otakuni
::I'd also like to say that even though BeastModePaul has had results, between the two notable Hero mains, Akakikusu is widely considered to be the best currently.

::I also suggested the column name change/content change as the column is currently filled with a lot of reps that are currently in the conversation for the best rather than reps that used to be considered the best, which may cause some confusion with viewers.
::Hope that these clarifications/additions help.[[User:PurpleCoffinMan|PurpleCoffinMan]] ([[User talk:PurpleCoffinMan|talk]]) 23:08, December 30, 2024 (EST)
:::If I may make a quick suggestion, {{Sm|Furararamen}} recently placed 9th at Sumabato SP 53 with mainly Isabelle, which is the highest Isabelle major placement; ranked 102nd with primarily Isabelle; and also beat acola with Isabelle (albeit at a weekly, but still something to note). I would at least consider Furararamen for best Isabelle at the moment. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 23:13, December 30, 2024 (EST)

:::At this rate, my list would be filled entirely with Japanese players. Anyway.. [[User:CSR|CSR]] ([[User talk:CSR|talk]]) 21:19, January 1, 2025 (EST)

Just one final suggestion I noticed. As much as ChocoTaco is a good player, he is definitely not a contender for the best in the world, since he's really only known for beating Kola at LMBM 2021. It's really between Regalo and Nitox historically, while currently there aren't really any notable Lucas players. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 18:50, January 4, 2025 (EST)

==The star==
Just a quick question, what is the purpose of the star for "Players who haven't participated in international tournaments yet"? It feels kinda weird to note this especially since 1) it shouldn't matter, and 2) the US isn't even the center of ''Ultimate'' anymore. (also Young Eevey has been to international events). [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 23:29, December 31, 2024 (EST)

:It refers to international players (Japanese, European, etc) who hasn't participated in US tournaments, or by extension, European tournaments and so on. I added this because there are few best players who rely on their national tournament results (i.e. Japanese players at tournaments held in their own country) instead of their international tournament results. I know it shouldn't matter, but I felt that some players just love farming their results in their home country. [[User:CSR|CSR]] ([[User talk:CSR|talk]]) 19:56, January 1, 2025 (EST)
::"Farming their results in their home country" is very much embellishing it, especially since travel is super expensive nowadays so unless a player has a really good sponsor, they can't really attend events outside their region. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 00:10, January 2, 2025 (EST)

:::Maybe I'm acting too harsh and strict to Japanese players. Gotta stand corrected. [[User:CSR|CSR]] ([[User talk:CSR|talk]]) 18:27, January 4, 2025 (EST)

== Missing Mii characters ==
I did see the changes made today, which are cool to see, but I just wanted to point out that the Mii characters are still missing from this list. Here's who I'd pick for the best of them:
* {{Sm|KID|France}} for Mii Brawler
* {{Sm|Capitancito|Dominican Republic}} for Mii Gunner
* {{Sm|Shissho|Japan}} or {{Sm|Erin|USA}} for Mii Swordfighter.

Another update: Remrin retired from the game in late 2024, and before she did, she switched to Banjo and Kazooie from Mewtwo, so SUZUNE is currently the best rep of the character.

I'd also like to suggest changing Duck Hunt's best rep from Ratio to {{Sm|mzk|Japan}} as Ratio is currently relatively inactive.

Finally, I'd like to suggest collapsing Simon and Richter together, as both characters are functionally the same with some very insignificant differences, and most Belmont mains play both but usually use Richter. T3 DOM is also an inactive player, so I'd move Richter to where Simon is.
[[Special:Contributions/1.159.22.103|1.159.22.103]] 02:23, January 5, 2025 (EST)

:Next time, sign your post with four tildes. Anyway, here are my answers:

While tournament legal, Miis aren't really common and personally, I don't feel like adding them, even though I aware that those are the best Mii players in the world.

I'll edit the best Mewtwo section later on, with Remrin gone in the scene for several months.

Raito wasn't inactive in a past few months--he attended some tournaments and placed 2nd in a recent tournament, namely [https://tonamel.com/competition/YwErE/tournament CRANE2024]. 

And finally, I didn't merge Simon along with Richter because their playerbase is vastly different in spite of sharing same movesets. T3 DOM, the current best Richter player in the world, doesn't use Simon at all; on the other hand, TRIGGER and YoseFu, notable Simon mains, don't play Richter, and vice versa. And neither players are enough to stand out as the best Simon main as of LumiRank 2024, though I'll put Richter in "currently unknown" section if T3 DOM keeps staying inactive. [[User:CSR|CSR]] ([[User talk:CSR|talk]]) 19:06, January 4, 2025 (EST)

:::Respectfully, I completely disagree with the sentiment about the Miis, not only is Brawler starting to become more common, but according to [https://x.com/EazyFreezie/status/1841952363990384817 EazyFreezie's Mid-season character placement stats], there are 9 characters lower than Swordfighter, 18 lower than Gunner and 40 that are lower than Brawler in terms of results/placements. Ultimate's Mii characters also differ vastly from their Sm4sh counterparts, so I think that they're just as viable as every other character on this list.[[Special:Contributions/1.159.22.103|1.159.22.103]] 02:23, January 5, 2025 (EST)

== Question ==

Out of curiosity, did you simply forget about Rarikkusu for Falco? I noticed that he got completely disregarded when you made edits to MASA/Motsu's pages. Even if we don't consider him straight up the definitive best Falco, he should at least be in consideration as he's clearly been a top 3 Falco prob even back when he co-mained the char. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 23:32, January 5, 2025 (EST)

:I thought Rarikkusu mainly plays DK, so I didn't know he plays Falco as his main. I tried adding 3 best players in one column, but his tag is long unlike Tilde, so I need to add him in other way. [[User:CSR|CSR]] ([[User talk:CSR|talk]]) 01:04, January 6, 2025 (EST)

== Some update suggestions entering 2025's character roster, and some suggestions regarding the 'former best' reps of each character ==

Have a few update ideas
* Jogibu is unfortunately now retired. As a result, it seems like {{Sm|Karaage}} would take the mantle for the best Captain Falcon in the world
* Rarikkusu is currently considered to be the best Falco player in the world to my knowledge rather than just a contender, as he has had better results than MASA and M0tsunabE for the past season, and was subsequently ranked higher
* Tarakotori has been considered to be the definitive best Little Mac player for a long time due to a better list of wins and results than Peanut
* Due to inconsistent results from {{Sm|Big D}}, it seems like the general consensus is that {{Sm|Sin}} is the best Ice Climbers player in the world
* While there are no other Incineroar representatives on his level, Skyjay is currently banned from competition in Mexico
* In terms of notable reps for {{SSBU|Simon}}, by default it seems like his best rep is {{Sm|TRIGGER|Japan}}.
* JeJaJeJa is currently in contention alongside Guilheww to be the best Kirby player in the world, something backed up by having the highest-ever placement of Kirby at a major

I'm also slightly confused about the 'former best' column, as I'm not sure if it's noting the former best character rep or players that are also in contention. Assuming it's the former, I have some suggestions for this column too:
* The conversation for best Corrin used to be between SHADIC and {{Sm|Neo|Indonesia|p=Japan}} before SHADIC got the laundry list of results he did with Corrin, so I'd put Neo in the 'former best' column alongside Ke-ya
* {{Sm|Jdizzle|Australia}} used to also be in conversation alongside Supahsemmie for the best Young Link player in the world, so I would add him to 'former best' if possible
* Cosmos is notably missing from the former best Inkling player column, despite being widely considered to be the best Inkling player of all time
* While he's banned and most likely will never be unbanned, Nairo is missing from the former best column for Palutena, despite being widely considered to be the best Palutena player of all time
* Syrup and Carmelo were never considered the best Steve players in the world in the past to my knowledge, but I believe that at one point, Pocket/Onin was. However, you could argue that Syrup is in contention currently.

Apologies for the wall of text, these were just some thoughts that I had [[User:PurpleCoffinMan|PurpleCoffinMan]] ([[User talk:PurpleCoffinMan|talk]]) 08:17, April 12, 2025 (EDT)

== Reno and Rarikkusu ==
Hi, having seen the past 2 weeks of Smash, I just wanted to make a couple of notes, Sephiroth's best rep is definitely now {{Sm|Reno}} as Sriks has retired and M4E now mainly plays Mr. Game & Watch. He's also in contention for the best Byleth and plays the character more than MkLeo does.

With his first major win, you can definitively also say that Rarikkusu is the best Falco player as he has achieved things that M0tsu and MASA haven't with the character. [[User:PurpleCoffinMan|PurpleCoffinMan]] ([[User talk:PurpleCoffinMan|talk]]) 01:01, June 1, 2025 (EDT)
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