Editing Talk:Stomp (archetype)

'''Keep'''- the stomp is a famous move for Ganondorf, as is [[Knee Smash|The Knee]] for Captain Falcon. It is also a very important aspect of Ganondorf's metagame, as OT and countless Brawlers have shown me.--[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]]<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100907023417/pirate-team/images/6/63/PAT1-19px.png 17:25, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

'''Delete.''' Whereas The Knee is a much loved, and ''much used'', aspect of Captain Falcon's game, "Stomp" seems to be a generic term used to arbitrarily group a load of down aerials that look sort of the same. Even if the article were to be rewritten to be just about Ganondorf's down aerial, which some people seem to think is what the article is currently about, I would still say delete, because it's simply nowhere near being significant enough to merit its own article. It's just a fairly meh rip of The Knee, but with such ridiculous startup lag that it can't be combo'd into outside of teams, and as Ganondorf isn't actually used in tournaments it's not even used in competitive ''Smash''. '''''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Penguin</font>]][[User talk:PenguinofDeath|<font color="gray">of</font>]][[Special:Contributions/PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Death</font>]]</span>''''' 21:30, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
:Actually PoD, it is a big part of Ganondorf's metagame in both ''Melee'' and ''Brawl''. It's start-up is certainly not ridiculous to be unusable outside of edgegaurding. Also, with L-Cancelling in ''Melee'' and it being able to be auto-cancelled in ''Brawl'', it is most certainly capable of being used in combos at low percentages. Similar to the knee, it is a sub 100% killer in both ''Melee'' and ''Brawl'' on grounded opponents, and it's capable of KOing recovering opponents at 0%. While it is safe to say Ganondorf isn't really used in ''Brawl'' tournaments, he was a much better and viable character in ''Melee'' who did saw use in tournaments, hence why he has always been middle tier or even high tier in ''Melee''. Needless to say, it was the most notable attack in Ganondorf's standard moveset. While I'm still unsure as to whether this deserves an article or not, please don't use false facts in your support for deletion. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 21:52, August 6, 2010 (UTC)

'''Delete''' - Per <s>Oswald Cobblepot</s> PenguinofDeath. <font face="Eurostile" size="3">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#00008B">BNK</span>]]</font><sup> <nowiki>[</nowiki>[[Special:EditCount/Blue Ninjakoopa|E]]|[[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Blue Ninjakoopa|C]]]</sup> 21:43, August 6, 2010 (UTC)

'''Delete''' - Seriously? Pages like this are still around the Wiki? <span style="border:2px outset yellow;background-color:green;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Zmario|<span style="color:yellow;">Z</span>]][[User talk:Zmario|<span style="color:yellow">mario</span>]]'''</span> 17:30, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly why do you guys think the Knee is more notable than this? Several characters use it and it's a good part of their metagames. If you can't see that by now, then you must not Brawl so much.--[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]]<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100907023417/pirate-team/images/6/63/PAT1-19px.png 17:43, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
: I'm so glad you AREN'T a sysop. I would laugh you out the front door. <span style="border:2px outset yellow;background-color:green;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Zmario|<span style="color:yellow;">Z</span>]][[User talk:Zmario|<span style="color:yellow">mario</span>]]'''</span> 17:44, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
::You are not supposed to treat sysops differently. You are older, but not as experienced as me. I have played Brawl for several hours and many Smashers use this as a part of their metagame. If this isn't notable, then the Knee ain't, because besides being popular, like the Ganon Stomp, it's basically treated like this.--[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]]<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100907023417/pirate-team/images/6/63/PAT1-19px.png 17:46, September 8,2010 (UTC)

'''Keep''': What OmegaTyrant and Mega Said. <font face="sand" color="silver">[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color="#ff2000">Doctor Pain 99</font>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|<font color="silver">C</font>]][[User Talk:Dr. Pain 99|<font color="silver">T</font>]][[Special:Editcount/Dr. Pain 99|<font color="silver">E</font>]])</font> http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100907023417/pirate-team/images/6/63/PAT1-19px.png 22:23, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Of course we shouldn't have articles on generic animations! [[Sex Kick|Oh yeah...]] And unlike that, Stomps actually have usefulness. If Ness' stomp had not been buffed in Brawl, he would still be in the bottom tier. Ganon's stomp having more lag is the reason why he's now the lowest. Perhaps the reason why some people believe the knee is more useful than this is because the Knee has an official name, but that doesn't mean that this article shouldn't exist. <choose><option><span style="color:red;">[[User:Mr. Anon|Mr.]]</span> <span style="color:green;">[[User talk:Mr. Anon|Anon]]</span> <span style="color:blue;">[[Special:Contributions/Mr. Anon|teh awsome]]</span></option><option>[[User:Mr. Anon|Anon]]</option><option>[[User:Mr. Anon|Sir]] [[User Talk:Mr. Anon|Anon]] [[Special: Contributions/Mr. Anon| the great]]</option></choose> 01:01, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

I have a crazy Idea! Why not MERGE it with [[Down aerial]]. That way it will have it's mention without needing a page.[[User:Drakon64|Drakon64]] ([[User talk:Drakon64|talk]]) 13:24, 26 November 2011 (EST)

== The Return of the Revenge of Deletion ==
Everything between the double-hyphens below is identical to an argument on the talk page of [[Drill (archetype)]], which I am pushing for the deletion of for the same reasons.

--

I've always been bothered by the existence of these two pages. Trying to make pages about "move archetypes" is, I think, much more trouble than it's worth.

These pages attempt to make faux-terms about groups of moves, which is a problem because the qualities of moves in that sense are very subjective. We could argue day and night about whether a specific move can be justifiably called a stomp, for instance - Falco's dair is clearly a downwards kick, but one could argue that it isn't a stomp because the move (particularly in Melee) isn't a stomp in appearance. The same could go for Luigi's down air. It's a downwards spin kick thing, and like Falco's, it spikes, so it behaves similarly to most stomps, but it's not a stomp in appearance technically? But it's still a downward's kick? And don't even get me started on Drill. "Drills are aerial attacks that involve rapid, multiple weak hits that finish with a final blow of reasonable knockback" - so I guess Samus' fair is a drill? And I guess Corrin's dair isn't, because it doesn't have a strong final blow, even if the move looks and feels and behaves like an actual drill otherwise?

Unlike most other articles we have for unofficial terminology, the terms "Drill" and "Stomp" also see very little use in general, you can see by the "What Links Here" sections that both of these terms are only sparsely used. That goes for actual speech too; maybe I'm in the minority here but I have never in my life heard somebody actually refer to a group of moves as Drills and I've only heard Stomp be used to refer to Ganon's and Falcon's.

My point is that both these terms (which nobody actually uses) are trying to lump together a load of moves based on vague, subjective similarities in animation and/or functionality. If we're going to bring our own terms to the wiki then we need to be able to make strict definitions for them, or we may as well just not have them in the first place.

The sex kick page may be brought up as a counterexample to justify these pages, but the term sex kick is (or was at one point) widespread, is so much more distinctive than 'drill' or 'stomp', and describes a ''very'' specific type of move which, in most cases, actually does look and act almost the exact same way. Though I feel even that page isn't the most necessary thing in the world.

One thing to note though: The deletion of these pages may not be particularly smooth. I imagine there are multiple pages where a sentence is stretched to include the term (e.g. "the move functions as a drill") where the sentence would need to be reworded. We also have entire categories dedicated to per-game stomps and drills for some godforsaken reason, and those would naturally need to also be deleted if we deem that these pages should be deleted.

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This page (not the Drill one) was previously marked for deletion, but consider that that was over 7 years ago. Aside from being longer and having better writing, the article has not really gone on to develop or solidify itself much, and the term doesn't serve much more of a purpose that doesn't feel forced. [[File:Nymbaresigicon.png]] [[User:Nymbare|<span style="color:#00BFFF">Nymbare</span>]] [[User talk:Nymbare|<span style="color:#0066FF">and his talk</span>]] 01:18, 22 October 2017 (EDT)


'''Oppose''', actually these kinds of moves are commonly referred to as stomping moves. Especially Ganondorf's down aerial. ''[[User:Alex Parpotta|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex Parpotta'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex Parpotta|<span style="color: red;">'''flying lobster!'''</span>]]'' 04:48, 22 October 2017 (EDT)
:Yes, but in that case, the moves are not being referred to as part of a group. People may call these moves stomps, but it's not because they're trying to fit them all into a category like this, it's just because the character is stomping. Nobody is going to say something like "Ganondorf has one of the best stomps", people are just going to say "Ganondorf's stomp is great", and they will only really say that by virtue of the fact that the move is a stomp in its animation. People also often refer to Ganon's f-tilt as a kick, because it is a kick, but that doesn't justify making a wiki page categorizing moves that are kicks. [[File:Nymbaresigicon.png]] [[User:Nymbare|<span style="color:#00BFFF">Nymbare</span>]] [[User talk:Nymbare|<span style="color:#0066FF">and his talk</span>]] 12:29, 22 October 2017 (EDT)

I just want to add that if we decide to keep this page, we're going to have to be more rigid about what a stomp actually is. As it stands, what's the difference between a "multi-hit stomp" and a drill kick? <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">HUAH!</span>]]</b> 12:39, 22 October 2017 (EDT)

No difference, so agreed. I would say a stomp isn't really even an archetype. [[User:Iron Gladiator|Iron Gladiator]] ([[User talk:Iron Gladiator|talk]]) 20:51, 22 October 2017 (EDT)
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	No difference, so agreed. I would say a stomp isn't really even an archetype. [[User:Iron Gladiator\|Iron Gladiator]] ([[User talk:Iron Gladiator\|talk]]) 20:51, 22 October 2017 (EDT)		No difference, so agreed. I would say a stomp isn't really even an archetype. [[User:Iron Gladiator\|Iron Gladiator]] ([[User talk:Iron Gladiator\|talk]]) 20:51, 22 October 2017 (EDT)

	'''Support.''' After thinking about it, the case for this page is quite weak. See [https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Drill_(archetype)#Deletion here] for my full thoughts. <b>[[User:john3637881\|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png\|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881\|<span style="color: red;">HUAH!</span>]]</b> 16:41, 28 October 2017 (EDT)
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