Editing Talk:Square Enix

== Disagreement regarding Sora not being a Square Enix character ==

Sora ''is'' a Square Enix character. The ''Kingdom Hearts'' franchise is not fully owned by Disney. The reason is that Disney needs permission from Square Enix employee Tetsuya Nomura, creator and director of the series, to get the greenlight, so technically, and ultimately, Square Enix ''does'' own Kingdom Hearts. If Sora were ''really'' a Disney character, he would be in non-Square Enix games (a ''Monster Hunter'' game, for example), where Square Enix is not given any credit or even mentioned at all, but I doubt Nomura would allow that. [[User:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate]] ([[User talk:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|talk]]) 18:21, October 25, 2021 (EDT)
:Disney asks Nomura out of respect despite Disney owning the character. They don’t ask permission because they have to but because they want to. [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon2.png|20px]] [[User:Thegameandwatch|<span style=" color: Green;">'''Thegameandwatch'''</span>]] [[File:Thegameandwatch signature icon.png|20px]] [[User talk:Thegameandwatch|''<span style="color: blue;">The Nerd </span>'']] 23:43, October 25, 2021 (EDT)
:Disney owns all properties related to ''Kingdom Hearts'', Sora included. It was what Disney and Square Enix agreed to when they opted to create a new protagonist for the collaboration. -- [[User:PanchamBro|PanchamBro]] ([[User talk:PanchamBro|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/PanchamBro|contributions]]) 18:30, October 25, 2021 (EDT)

::If you still doubt us, just look it up on Google. Almost all the results state that Sora, as well as Kingdom Hearts in general, is owned by Disney. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:42, October 25, 2021 (EDT)

:::In addition to what Cookies and Pancham said, if we were to give anything related to ''Kingdom Hearts'' on this Wiki the Square Enix category, then we would also have to give the company categories to any content from games that are made by said companies but not owned by them (e.g. giving anything ''Four Swords''/''The Minish Cap''-related the Capcom tag; anything ''Star Fox: Assault'' or ''Donkey Konga''-related the Namco tag; anything ''Mario Hoops''-related the Square Enix tag; etc.). While I wouldn't mind this, per se, it's still something that needs a consensus first in order to be implemented. [[File:JacketTerraSig1.png|20px]]'''The [[User:The Jacketed Terrapin|<span style="color: blue;">Jacketed</span>]] [[User talk:The Jacketed Terrapin|<span style="color: green;">Terrapin</span>]]'''[[File:JacketTerraSig2.png|20px]] 21:14, October 25, 2021 (EDT)

::::<big>'''“'''</big>''Sora belongs to SQUARE Enix.<br /><br />Kingdom Heart series are cooperation attempt between Disney and Square Enix but there is a clear separation between them.<br /><br />The characters each brought to the game are their own copyrighted materials from their own studios (which is evident from the game’s ending screen) and even so you could see Disney characters’ being level bosses (including Maleficent who was a sub-final boss), the end boss will always be SQUARE Enix’s choice.<br /><br />This is because Disney is more “rigid” than SQUARE ENIX. Their “villains” are preset - which means they cannot be defeated in any way except how their movies had played out. You cannot defeat Ursula (The Little Mermaid) without Ariel’s and Neptune’s help. You cannot defeat the hunter (forgot his name) without Tarzan’s help and so on.<br /><br />This allows a greater flexibility for SQUARE ENIX to model their own villains and use it however they want.''<big>'''”'''</big><br />''-- Gobi Subramaniam in Quora''<br /><br />So ultimately, contrary to what the Google search results claim, by controlling the franchise, Square Enix ''does'' own ''Kingdom Hearts''. [[User:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate]] ([[User talk:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|talk]]) 21:34, October 25, 2021 (EDT)
:::::Quora is far from a reliable source. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 21:55, October 25, 2021 (EDT)
:::::[https://www-aaaba-lp1-hac.cdn.nintendo.net/en-US/de3d9052/index.html? The copyright notice for Sora] literally only credits Disney without an ounce of Square Enix being there. Similarly, [https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Kingdom_Hearts_(series)#Copyright_Information the copyright notices for the series] (I would link to the image if Fandom's image linking system wasn't broken beyond repair) only credit Square Enix as the developer of the series and the owners of the ''Final Fantasy'' characters.
:::::Also, citing a Quora post that doesn't have any sources to back up its claims is not really a good way to prove your point. [[File:JacketTerraSig1.png|20px]]'''The [[User:The Jacketed Terrapin|<span style="color: blue;">Jacketed</span>]] [[User talk:The Jacketed Terrapin|<span style="color: green;">Terrapin</span>]]'''[[File:JacketTerraSig2.png|20px]] 21:56, October 25, 2021 (EDT)
::::::Developing a franchise, and being a bottleneck on what directions the franchise goes in, isn't really enough to say that a company "owns" the franchise. Disney could just as quickly revoke Square Enix's ability to develop the games. If we were to say that whoever makes the games and oversees promotions "owns" the franchise, then we could say that Retro Studios owns Metroid Prime and Donkey Kong Country, for example. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 22:16, October 25, 2021 (EDT)
:::::::Really? Then why is Sora labelled as one of the Square Enix mascots in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_game_mascots List of video game mascots] on Wikipedia? [[User:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate]] ([[User talk:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|talk]]) 23:58, October 26, 2021 (EDT)
::::::::Checking the edit history, Sora was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_video_game_mascots&type=revision&diff=938578052&oldid=938385234 added] by an unknown IP, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_video_game_mascots&type=revision&diff=999449678&oldid=999427935 removed] due to having no source, and then [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_video_game_mascots&type=revision&diff=1003448876&oldid=1003444740 quickly readded] by the same IP with a source, very likely a random page they just picked up from the internet. If you also check the edit summaries, it's been a nightmare of additions and removals ever since 2020, further bringing into question how legitimate the page really is. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 10:55, October 27, 2021 (EDT)
Ignoring for a moment the fact that ''there's no rule stating that a character has to belong to a company to be one of the company's mascots'', it's because Wikipedia's cited articles on the matter were poorly chosen. Wikipedia is generally not a great authority to defer to in scenarios like this (JSYK this is coming from a seasoned WP editor); rather than taking the editors' wording at face value, you should check out the cited sources - I did, and I'm not impressed. (More specifically, source #30 is just a brief mention of Square E on an old article of dubious authority; and #31 doesn't necessarily call KH a Square Enix property, but is simply noting that they may have gotten in the way of keeping the Sora costume around Disney Land.) As a WP editor myself, if I wasn't strapped for time right now, I would replace the sources, change wording, or remove Sora from the list entirely, depending on what I could find. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 01:34, October 27, 2021 (EDT)
::Although I know [https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Kingdom_Hearts_(series)#Copyright_Information another Wiki] isn't necessarily the "best" point of reference, but looking at any start up menu for any installment in the ''Kingdom Hearts'' series shows that it is Disney who "owns" the properties while Square Enix is credited as the "developers".
::At the beginning of when the Kingdom Hearts games start up, it says C Disney. Also C Disney/Pixar in KH3 and MoM. It also does the same for Final Fantasy but later changed to just "characters from Square Enix games". Other properties are only specified in certain installments, Tarzan in KH1 & FM, ''The Nightmare Before Christmas'' in the original KH2 and KH CoM, ''Peter Pan'' in KH CoM & Re:CoM (listing Pan, Tinkerbell, and Hook individually by name), and ''Winnie the Pooh'' in KH3. As well as licensed by Nintendo on any of their platforms, as well as any companies and engines that worked on that specific installment. And of course, developed by Square Enix. Just looking at anyone's LP on YouTube that includes the start up shows that. In fact, here's a [https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/e/ef/Kingdom_hearts_copyright.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20160821074759 picture of one of the start ups regarding the copyright]. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 09:12, October 27, 2021 (EDT)
:Although Square Enix doesn't own Sora, still need to write the relationship between the two on this page, because it's his creator, just as Platinum is for Bayonetta and Rare is for DK.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 09:55, October 27, 2021 (EDT)
::If Disney truly does truly own the ''Kingdom Hearts'' franchise, they'd have full control over the characters. But alas, they do not. Therefore, Square Enix DOES truly own ''Kingdom Hearts'', and thus makes Sora a Square Enix character, not a Disney character. [[User:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate]] ([[User talk:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|talk]]) 07:21, November 9, 2021 (EST)
:::Ass-backwards logic. That's like saying because Rare are responsible for developing Diddy Kong, they own the character instead of Nintendo. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 07:51, November 9, 2021 (EST)
:::You're going in circles, I'll just copy-paste what I said earlier and add a little emphasis: Developing a franchise, and being a bottleneck on what directions the franchise goes in, isn't really enough to say that a company ''legally'' "owns" the franchise. '''''Disney could just as quickly revoke Square Enix's ability to develop the games.''''' If we were to say that whoever makes the games and oversees promotions "owns" the franchise, then ''we could say that Retro Studios owns Metroid Prime and Donkey Kong Country, for example''. (If you don't get it, I'm trying to say that Retro doesn't and never has legally "owned" those franchises.) Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 08:08, November 9, 2021 (EDT)
::::I agree with you but Retro Studios is actually owned by Nintendo so Rare would be better example because they developed the original Donkey Kong Country games but don't own the IP. [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon2.png|20px]] [[User:Thegameandwatch|<span style=" color: Green;">'''Thegameandwatch'''</span>]] [[File:Thegameandwatch signature icon.png|20px]] [[User talk:Thegameandwatch|''<span style="color: blue;">The Nerd </span>'']] 08:55, November 9, 2021 (EST)
:::::"Disney could just as quickly revoke Square Enix's ability to develop the games"<br />But Square Enix could easily sue Disney for revoking their (Square Enix's) ability to develop the games. [[User:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate]] ([[User talk:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|talk]]) 11:12, November 9, 2021 (EST)
::::::Now you’re just grasping at straws, saying pretty much anything you can to get your way. Face the facts, you’re losing this argument, as you haven’t come up with any valid sources for calling Sora a Square Enix-owned character, while everyone else has come up with sources proving he is owned by Disney, or otherwise reciting your statements. Unless you can come up with some '''actual CITED information''' proving Square owns Sora, I suggest you just back off from this, this is not a hill worth dying for. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 15:50, November 9, 2021 (EST)

As The Jacketed Terrapin linked above, [https://www-aaaba-lp1-hac.cdn.nintendo.net/en-US/de3d9052/index.html? Sora's copyright for Smash] is overtly "© Disney" with no mention of Square Enix. The fact that they develop the KH games but do not own the copyright for Sora is already mentioned in the article. There is nothing further to discuss. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 16:01, November 9, 2021 (EST)

:::::::Then prove why Square Enix could not easily sue Disney for revoking their (Square Enix's) ability to develop the games. Face it, Square Enix has the most representation in Smash Ultimate, and I disapprove of this. [[User:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate]] ([[User talk:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|talk]]) 21:15, November 22, 2021 (EST)
<small>(Reset indent) </small>Here's an example using a different dev and series, ''Left 4 Dead''. ''L4D'' was developed by Turtle Rock Studios. Shortly after the success of ''L4D'' Valve (the company behind Steam) acquired Turtle Rock Studios and, in the process, the rights to ''Left 4 Dead''. Turtle Rock Studios later left Valve and returned to being on their own, but Valve still retained ownership ''Left 4 Dead''. Turtle Rock Studios was thus not allowed to do anything with ''L4D'' unless Valve said so (which they did and asked them to make ''Left 4 Dead 2''). Valve could sue Turtle Rock Studios for making another ''Left 4 Dead'' without Valve's permission, but not the other way around since Valve is the owner of it. Same deal with Disney and Square Enix: Disney owns Sora and ''Kingdom Hearts'' despite Square Enix being the creators. If Disney wanted, they could tell SE to take a hike and let Disney's employees develop the next ''KH'' game; SE could not sue over losing ''KH'' since they don't own it. For another example, ''Spongebob Squarepants'' and its characters were made by the late Stephen Hillenburg, but Nickelodeon does not (or did not) need his permission on using the characters for whatever they want. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 21:49, November 22, 2021 (EST)

You can disapprove of it all you like, but that doesn’t change the fact that Disney owns Sora. The evidence is clear as day. You’ve already been told by an admin (Miles) to walk away from this, I suggest you do that, lest you find yourself getting in trouble. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 22:56, November 22, 2021 (EST)
:I also feel the need to point out to you that you seem to only still be participating in this argument because you want to win it. If this is true, then you should know that is definitely '''NOT''' the purpose of discussing matters on the talk page. You are standing in the way of what is otherwise a '''unanimous''' consensus that says that Sora is Disney-owned. All the evidence provided here says so, and every single argument of yours has either been refuted or disproven. Either come up with something compelling that we cannot refute, or walk away from this issue altogether. A wiki talk page is NOT a battleground; please do not turn this into one. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 05:47, November 23, 2021 (EST)

::If Disney really fully owned ''Kingdom Hearts'', they could freely stop the collaboration with Square Enix anytime and start working with other third-party companies (e.g. SEGA, Capcom, Bandai Namco, etc.), the ''Kingdom Hearts'' would have video game characters that are not from Square Enix, and the articles on the internet would only mention "Disney's ''Kingdom Hearts''", not "Disney and Square Enix's ''Kingdom Hearts''", but alas, none of this will ever happen. In addition, Sora is Nomura's creation, and therefore his baby, just like Kirby is to Masahiro Sakurai. And ''Kingdom Hearts'' is his creation, and therefore his treasure, which is why Disney cannot revoke Square Enix's ability to develop the games without being sued. Let's not ignore the fact that there are people like me who believe that ''Kingdom Hearts'' belongs to Square Enix, not Disney. It is high time Disney broke this myth and stopped relying on Square Enix when it comes to ''Kingdom Hearts''. Disney's reliance on Square Enix technically makes Square Enix have the most representation in Smash Ultimate, and as I said before, I disapprove of this sour fact. Seeing that Square Enix is treating Nintendo like sh**, Also, Square Enix having the most representation in Smash Ultimate is...painfully ironic... [[User:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate]] ([[User talk:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|talk]]) 09:46, March 28, 2022 (EDT)
:::Come up with some EVIDENCE that Square Enix owns the franchise and not just opinions/hearsay on the matter and we might allow this trivia point to be inserted. Sora may have been created by Tetsuya Nomura, but to say he owns the character is like saying that Rare owns the rights to [[Diddy Kong]] because they created him. Who created/designed the character is irrelevant. Show, not tell, us some evidence of who owns the franchise, or else we have nothing to discuss. <br>While we're at it, stop with the [[SW:PREV|rapid-fire edits]] to the talk page, it needlessly makes it difficult for people to respond to you. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] the 🦊[[User talk:Black Vulpine|'''Furry''']]🐺. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 10:01, March 28, 2022 (EDT)
:::How the hell are you still onto this? This isn't even a legitimate argument, just a bunch of rambling from someone who clearly does not know what they are talking about. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 10:07, March 28, 2022 (EDT)
::::Even if Disney does own ''Kingdom Hearts'', the fact that the games ''Kingdom Hearts'' are all developed by Square Enix (and no other third-party character) still bothers me... [[User:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate]] ([[User talk:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|talk]]) 10:11, March 28, 2022 (EDT)
:::::There's literally nothing you can do. Unfortunately, the facts cannot be changed by how you feel. I strongly recommend you drop this, because this is just looking more and more bad for you. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 10:13, March 28, 2022 (EDT)
::::::There is literally something I can do. All I have to do is go over to the Nintendo headquarters, complain to the staff that "there are too many Square Enix characters in Smash Ultimate", and convince them to add more non-Square Enix third-party characters in ''Ultimate''. That is, after the COVID-19 pandemic is over... [[User:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate]] ([[User talk:Smash64MeleeBrawl4Ultimate|talk]]) 10:16, March 28, 2022 (EDT)
:::::::You're just derailing from the conversation at this point. Either you're just trolling or you're just a kid who does not know how anything works. You think Nintendo would listen to some random person because they are butthurt that a company has too much representation in a child's party game? Also, good luck trying to convince Nintendo's staff - who mostly don't even have control over who is added into the game - when you can't even convince a few wiki editors that your arguments are valid. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 10:24, March 28, 2022 (EDT)
No-one would blame you for walking away from this conversation right now. De-railing it is not helping your case - assuming you're even still trying to make a case. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 10:18, March 28, 2022 (EDT)

This argument has run its course and at this point S64MB4U you are being plainly disruptive, I have no idea why you came back to this four months later just to ramble nonsensically. But in any case this is your formal warning to stop. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 11:01, March 28, 2022 (EDT)
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