Editing Talk:Pokémon Trainer (SSBU)

==Alternate costumes==
The information specified in this subsection is valuable, definitely, but traditionally that kind of knowledge is kept in a separate article. Should it be removed and saved for another day closer to the game's release or tolerated until the full "Alternate costume (SSBU)" article is created? Should other characters in ''Ultimate'' receive similar subsections?[[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:16, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
:By tradition, we document alternate costumes on their character pages too. Look at any fighter's info page for any of the previous games to see what I mean. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|'''Furry Nation''']]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 21:25, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
::I've looked through the character pages for fighters in ''Brawl'' and ''SSB4'' and found none. Maybe I'm overlooking it. Do you have any examples? [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:03, 18 June 2018 (EDT)
:::The most I've seen is that [[Shulk (SSB4)#Alternate costumes|Shulk]]'s page mentions that his costumes are based on party members from ''Xenoblade Chronicles''. Perhaps we could truncate this page's "Alternate costumes" section to the leading paragraph, and leave the specifics for the "Alternate costume (SSBU)" page? [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 00:07, 18 June 2018 (EDT)
::::I would be in favor of that, in addition to formally starting the "Alternate costume (SSBU)" article. While all details aren't available now, other users are clearly interested in describing the details they've found, and I don't think they should be restricted to just the info relevant to the character articles. [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:26, 18 June 2018 (EDT)
:::::[[Peach (SSBM)#Alternate costumes|Here's an alt costume section]]. [[Yoshi (SSB4)#Alternate costumes|And another]]. [[Falco (SSBB)#Alternate costumes|And another]]. They're usually at the bottom of every page. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|'''Furry Nation''']]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 00:39, 18 June 2018 (EDT)
::::::Black Vulpix, I think you misunderstood what I meant. I'm sorry if I was unclear. I know character articles have subsections ''for'' alternate costumes, but people are adding descriptions for what each alt is based on, as exemplified on [[Pokémon Trainer (SSBU)|this very article]] or {{SSBU|Ridley}}'s. That kind of detail is reserved for the "Alternate costume" pages. Using the example you provided, Peach's ''Melee'' article says nothing about the fact that she has alts based on Daisy or ''Mario Golf''. It just shows a picture of what the alts are. That kind of info is described only [[Alternate costume (SSBM)#Peach|here]]. [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:53, 18 June 2018 (EDT)
:::::The "Alternate costume" article is currently in the sandbox stages, likely because the demo only features a small portion of the cast. You can find it [[User:DekZek/Alternate_Costume_(SSBU)|here]]. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 01:22, 18 June 2018 (EDT)
:I suppose the question we might have to ask soon is: where do we want the detailed descriptions of the costumes? Should we keep them on the Alternate Costume pages, or move them to their respective character section under the "Alternate Costumes" sections? Or both? I'm neutral about this, but I can see the argument in favor of having the descriptions on character pages under the alt costume section. Especially for brevity when we're going to have to cram all 63+ characters' alt costumes' description into one page. [[User:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#FF0000">Unknown </font>]] [[User talk:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#780000">the </font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#000000">Hedgehog</font>]] 03:41, 18 June 2018 (EDT)
::To be honest, I never understood why that information couldn't be shared between the fighter and alternate costume articles, and I fully support moving costume details to their respective character pages, but I was never in a position to suggest that change. I don't make the rules. I just try to follow them. [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 03:46, 18 June 2018 (EDT)
:::I think a couple of problems that arise when the information is on both articles is trying to make sure that the information is consistent between the two articles, and that information being added between the two articles is accurate, which was already a headache for just one article back when Smash 4 came out (afterall, the SSB4 alt costume article has the most revisions out of any article here, [[Special:MostRevisions|2,441]], and it's only going to be worse with Ultimate). [[User:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#FF0000">Unknown </font>]] [[User talk:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#780000">the </font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#000000">Hedgehog</font>]] 08:56, 18 June 2018 (EDT)

== Regarding the Pokemon Trainer's Attribute and Changes sections ==

So there's one issue which I've noticed when keeping an attribute and changes section on both this page and each separate Pokemon's page: people tend to edit this one but not the actual Pokemon's pages, and it ends up having completely different or outdated information on the Pokemon Trainer's page, or the Pokemon themselves. 

Could we get to a consensus about this? Preferably I'd just place all the Pokemon's attribute and attack changes on their pages, while keeping this page solely for changes that affect either the Trainer's aesthetics, or mechanics that affect all Pokemon (eg. the removal of Stamina). This will remove the necessity of editing two pages at once to make sure they always have the same info. 

I'd like to add that one user has already given a yes for it (Senor Mexico on the Discord), so I'd appreciate if more opinions are given for this.
[[User:Archrelico|Archrelico]] ([[User talk:Archrelico|talk]]) 00:11, 21 June 2018 (EDT)

:Christ, people are quick to draw with defining what a consensus is, yet sluggish to actually put in their opinion to ''form'' that consensus. Before I get too frustrated by this, I'm just going to bump and place my own viewpoint of why I'm suggesting this change.

*Composite characters (2-in-1 or characters considered the same entity) have always had their attributes and changes listed on their own unique page. ''Brawl'' {{SSBB|Zelda}}'s "Changes from Melee" was not grouped together with {{SSB4|Sheik}}'s changes on her page, and vice versa, simply because changes were more streamlined that way. Additionally, despite Sheik being part of Zelda's moveset, she also wasn't considered the exact same character, and grouping their changes together would have been convoluted and a waste of effort, since you could just leave info on either character's page specifically. Similarly, ''Brawl'' {{SSBB|Pokemon Trainer}} had all his Pokemon's movesets and playstyle changes on their respective pages, while his page was for general info regarding him and his Pokemon as a single entity (alongside their standing on the tier list as a whole).

*Characters considered different ''variations'' are treated the same as above: see {{SSB4|Mii Fighter}}. General information such as how their customs work, the way they can be modified through height and weight etc. are listed on the general "Mii Fighter" page, while moveset and playstyle differences are listed on their own unique page. 

*The above two points show a benefit of keeping a format such as this: alongside already being used prior, they prevent the hassle of double-editing two pages. The reason why I brought this up is due to the complications that arose when I was updating the Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon's movesets: those pages were updated, but the Trainer's page (with the exact same info) was outdated and misinformed. If two pages are constantly updated or left outdated due to different users preferring to update one page over the other, we will come to a point where we are unable to tell which pages has ''actual, verifiable'' information.

:There's my reasoning why I have been determined to filter down the page in such a way. Note that I have already spent time cross-checking the Pokemon's pages before deciding to cut out almost 4k bytes worth of info (by moving them to said pages), and I've already done the same for ''Ultimate'''s Mii Fighter pages to keep them consistent with the previous game's page as well. I'm requesting this to literally reduce hassle in the future, when there will definitely be clutter from all three Pokemon's changes. [[User:Archrelico|Archrelico]] ([[User talk:Archrelico|talk]]) 03:49, 22 June 2018 (EDT)

::I went ahead and did this after a little discussion in Discord and added a note to look at individual pages for changes. Maybe I should've waited longer actually but this seems like the best option. An alternative would be to make a template for each Pokémon's changes and put them on this page as well as their pages. [[User:Fitzpeter|Fitzpeter]] ([[User talk:Fitzpeter|talk]]) 14:05, 27 June 2018 (EDT)

== The return of Type Advantages? ==
Ridley's Final Smash was cited to deal around 40%, yet when used on Ivysaur in this clip: https://youtu.be/WpPWksfNlwA?t=2m13s , it seems to do a whopping 66%, far larger than what was assumed. Assuming his final smash does fire damage, does this mean that Type Advantages have returned, or made even worse due to effecting damage percentages rather than knockback? ~~

I think it's far too early to make that sort of assumption, especially since "official info" regarding attack percentages seem to be all over the place right now. Ridley's down special is one of those: I've seen it do 49%, but also far smaller numbers. (Signing a post requires four tildes, by the way.) [[User:Archrelico|Archrelico]] ([[User talk:Archrelico|talk]]) 00:46, 21 June 2018 (EDT)

== Use ''they/them'' pronouns sparingly ==

SmashWiki's [[SmashWiki:Manual of Style#Writing style|Manual of Style]] states quite clearly that for fighters who have both genders as alternate costumes, unless you're making a distinction between the two genders, you should "'''use the gender pronoun that matches the default choice.'''" That means that, when referring to the Pokémon Trainer, you should use '''''he/him/his''''' pronouns, not ''they/them/their''. (The Pokémon each use ''it/its''.)

This might seem obvious, or it might not, I dunno. But there seem to be some editors who, for one reason or another, came to believe that the two genders should be treated as two different people and referred to collectively when describing their shared traits. This is not the case.

If you're having trouble, imagine you're editing {{SSBU|Bowser Jr.}}'s page instead. You might write, "His down special move, [[Mechakoopa]], has far less endlag than it did in ''Smash 4''." No problems there, right? You don't call Bowser Jr. "they" just because Wendy Koopa is female, even though the statement about Mechakoopa applies to her too. Similarly, for Pokémon Trainer, Pokémon Change is "his down special", not "their down special".

It goes without saying, but if you're talking about something that's different between the two genders, like voice clips and ''some'' animations, then make the distinction as necessary. (After all, if all the Koopalings' voice clips had been updated, you'd say "They received new voice clips.") But otherwise, please try to stick to male pronouns. — [[User:Ardub23|Ardub23]] ([[User talk:Ardub23|talk]]) 00:08, 2 January 2019 (EST)

== Pokémon Trainer incapacitation reaction ==

The claim made in [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Pokémon_Trainer_(SSBU)&diff=1189543&oldid=1189534 this edit] is that the Pokémon Trainer uses their "incapacitated Pokémon" reaction when the active Pokémon is made asleep or frozen. I know quite surely that this isn't true. I can only assume you might be confusing their regular "hit Pokémon" reaction with the "incapacitated Pokémon" reaction. The former is triggered when the Pokémon is made asleep or frozen, but only because they are being hit by an attack to be made so, just like being hit by any other attack. Note that the former has no voice line, compared to the latter which always plays a voice line and has a very different animation. [[User:Dr. HyperCake|Dr. HyperCake]] ([[User talk:Dr. HyperCake|talk]]) 10:13, 15 February 2019 (EST)

== Changes regarding the Pokemon Trainer Names ==

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Pok%C3%A9mon_Trainer#.22Leaf.22

In case anyone was still on the fence on the female trainer's name, [https://twitter.com/PokemonMasters/status/1219318714652418051 Pokemon Masters] has '''officially''' referred to the female trainer from FireRed&LeafGreen as "Leaf". Meaning, that Green/Blue in Let's Go (and other appearances) is a completely separate character. And that the character we've referred to as "Leaf" unofficially will stay as "leaf", but now officially. [[Special:Contributions/66.194.104.5|66.194.104.5]] 15:56, January 21, 2020 (EST)

== Should Quidd be on Historically Significant Players? ==

Quidd has just recently been the 2nd Pokemon Trainer player to win a major after winning Let's Make Big Moves 2022, and has taken out several top 10-30 players offline post-quarantine, such as Light, Kola, MuteAce and LeoN, as well as getting 2nd at CROSSXUP, a Tristate regional. He's the best PT in Tristate, and a lot of top/high players on Twitter are considering him a top 2 PT in the world alongside Atelier post-quarantine after his major tournament win.--[[User:Hydreigonfan01|Hydreigonfan01]] ([[User talk:Hydreigonfan01|talk]]) 20:32, January 10, 2022 (EST)
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	Quidd has just recently been the 2nd Pokemon Trainer player to win a major after winning Let's Make Big Moves 2022, and has taken out several top 10-30 players offline post-quarantine, such as Light, Kola, MuteAce and LeoN, as well as getting 2nd at CROSSXUP, a Tristate regional. He's the best PT in Tristate, and a lot of top/high players on Twitter are considering him a top 2 PT in the world alongside Atelier post-quarantine after his major tournament win.--[[User:Hydreigonfan01\|Hydreigonfan01]] ([[User talk:Hydreigonfan01\|talk]]) 20:32, January 10, 2022 (EST)		Quidd has just recently been the 2nd Pokemon Trainer player to win a major after winning Let's Make Big Moves 2022, and has taken out several top 10-30 players offline post-quarantine, such as Light, Kola, MuteAce and LeoN, as well as getting 2nd at CROSSXUP, a Tristate regional. He's the best PT in Tristate, and a lot of top/high players on Twitter are considering him a top 2 PT in the world alongside Atelier post-quarantine after his major tournament win.--[[User:Hydreigonfan01\|Hydreigonfan01]] ([[User talk:Hydreigonfan01\|talk]]) 20:32, January 10, 2022 (EST)
	:While I agree with Quidd being one of the current best PTs in the world, he doesn't have the body of the work over time that the players on here do, and were currently at the 10 player limit. A few more good performances over the next several months and I'll be for replacing someone with him however. [[User:Wiifitkid\|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid\|talk]]) 20:50, January 10, 2022 (EST)
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