Editing Talk:Pokémon Trainer

I just call him Ash because i only see Ash when i look at the guy <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:207.241.247.30|207.241.247.30]] ([[User talk:207.241.247.30|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/207.241.247.30|contribs]]) 17:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</small>
:Even though he looks nothing like Ash, nor does Ash have Squirtle or Ivysaur. Do you call Ike Roy also?- [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] 22:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

The last I heard Ash does have a Squirtle. But, not with him. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:God180|God180]] ([[User talk:God180|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/God180|contribs]]) 22:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)</small>

Dude, his name is Red! Any Pokmon fan that is geeky enough to actually reserch the offical names of the RPG Charecters would know that! He is based on The Fire red/Leaf Green version Red. Also, Red IS NOT Ash and likwise with Blue and Gary.--[[User:Mudkipz|User:Mudkipz]] 13:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't a pokemon fan at the time of Red or Blue so i just call him pokemon trainer. Unless i'm fighting him then i just refer to the pokemon he's using at the time. At one point Ash did have a squirtle and a charizard but he never had them at the same time and he never had an ivysaur. Speaking of which wonder why they picked those three pokemon. [[User:Carbonkirby|Carbonkirby]] 13:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The reason why he has those 3 pokemon is because Squirtle is the 1st form(before evolution), Ivysaur is the 2nd form(after evolution), and Charizard is the 3rd form(after 1rst evolution).[[Special:Contributions/65.1.42.165|65.1.42.165]] 15:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't answer my question in any way. I'm asking out of all the hundreds of pokemon out of all the choices why they chose those 3 first generation pokemon only. [[User:Carbonkirby|Carbonkirby]] 19:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
:Maybe because they're easily recognizable franchise classics? I dunno...They're all very different in play style while sharing a common theme... - [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] 23:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

* The Pokémon Trainer, canonically named Red, is the only character in the Super Smash Bros. series to date who appears as both a main protagonist and final boss in his own universe. 
:* This is not true When Mario first appeared in Donkey Kong he was the protagonist. But In DK jr he wasthe final boss.--Ouroborosi 21:04, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I just noticed something about the pictures of May and Brendan. They have two colors, one for R/S and one for ''Emerald.'' The pictures in the article show a R/S version of them- should we incluse both? [[User:Raiespio|Raiespio]] ([[User talk:Raiespio|talk]]) 03:51, December 28, 2009 (UTC)


==Settlement==
Hey! I recently started playing the very first pokemon game, pokemon red. You know how there's a lot of controversy about whether he's ash or not? Well here's the answer: He is. And he's also red. You see, like many RPGs at the time, in Pokemon Red, you can name your character any one of a group of given names. One of the names is Red, and another is Ash. Also, at the begining, you can choose your first pokemon from a group of three. Guess what they are: Squirtle, Bulbasaur, and Charamander. There. I hope I have settled the controversy around this guy. [[Special:Contributions/98.117.158.220|98.117.158.220]] 01:19, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
:Unfortunately, that's not good enough proof. As far as we know, the option "Ash" as a name could be a reference to Ash from the TV show (since we all know kids would go nuts to name their guy the same as the famous guy without having to know how to spell it). And just because PT fights with the Kanto starters doesn't mean one of them is his starter (although it's likely) - he could have traded for them, for example. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 01:25, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
::You probably don't understand what I was trying to say. Here's what I meant:
::#It's OK to call the PK trainer "Ash", as he is.
::#I also was simply explaining the reason why those three pokemon were chosen.
:::Is the Red in ''[[FireRed]]'' classified as Ash? ''That'' is the Red ''this'' Pokemon Trainer is based off of, my friend! By now, all who play Nintendo's games should know that the video games never connect with the Anime. <span style="border:2px outset blue;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 03:41, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
::::I have played the original ''Pokemon Red''. One of the possible names is ash. Ash and this guy are the same person. Ash isn't "based off" Red, he '''is''' red. It's like saying whether the Mario in the TV shows is the same mario as the one in the games. [[Special:Contributions/98.117.158.220|98.117.158.220]] 03:45, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
:::::[http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Red_(game)#Counterparts See here]. According to Bulbapedia (and let's face it, they're the thing on this subject), Red and Ash are related but not identical. Like having two cars of the same make - they originally came fom the same place, but their seperate experiences differentiated them. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 03:51, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
::::::Well, for one, Bulbapedia's information can't be used to clarify information here. Secondly, Ash being a possible name isn't enough proof, and Red just resembling Ash isn't either. To be frank, you'd need the exact quote from Pokemon's executives that ''"Ash is Red"'', heh heh heh. <span style="border:2px outset blue;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 03:55, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
::::::To 98.117.158.220. <span style="border:2px outset blue;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 03:56, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Indeed. Ash isn't Red, he's BASED OFF Red. And the name "Ash" ISN'T canonical to the games, as he was NEVER called that in them.

::::::::First of all sign your posts using <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> Second, this discussion is months old. <font face="sand" color="silver">[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color="#ff2000">Doctor Pain 99</font>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|<font color="silver">C</font>]][[User Talk:Dr. Pain 99|<font color="silver">T</font>]][[Special:Editcount/Dr. Pain 99|<font color="silver">E</font>]])</font> [[file:dp99.png]] 03:28, August 1, 2010 (UTC)


*Sakurai loves Generation 1, obviously, besides that, he wanted to see the actual idea of Pokemon Training make it into Smash. Now, we all know that Sakurai chooses his Pokemon characters based upon the Anime(he's stated this in an interview). Who's the most prominent Trainer? Ash. However, he always uses game designs. So he mixed features from both characters up, and threw them in as a generic Pokemon Trainer. Since Red from the games has no anime appearances, him choosing Red wouldn't make sense. As for the choices, Squirtle and Charizard were major members of Ash's team, which explains why he went with those two. Last was Ivysaur, and since there was no other potential character(and he didn't care about the Manga, meaning Clefairy wouldn't fit the bill, plus, she's not one of the basic starters from Gen I), he chose him as the final one. Kanto is heavily recognize, which Sakurai loves.
:*This would be true if Red made it into Smash, but sadly, he didn't. Unfortunately, Sakurai didn't want anything beyond his design in, mostly because it's the most iconic design and nothing more. [[User:HyperFalcon|HyperFalcon]] ([[User talk:HyperFalcon|talk]]) 03:20, 29 July 2013 (EDT)
:::Or, you know, Sakurai just decided to just go with Charizard because it's a favorite mon for a lot of people while the rest were chosen based on his own reasons rather than "Ash owned it, therefore in". We can't confirm he's Ash just because he has a Charizard and Squirtle. We're calling him Red because his design resembles Red, so we're going for it. We can't call the guy Ash at all because he doesn't resemble Ash and owning a Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur doesn't make you Ash, especially since Charizard is super popular anyway and Ash never owned a Ivysaur. <span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|19px]] 03:33, 29 July 2013 (EDT)
::::Sakurai looks at the Anime for characters. Squirtle and Charizard were huge in it(coincidentally belonging to Ash, Red's game counterpart). Ivysaur was just an afterthought. That, and we know he likes Generation 1 heavily. He does use a Generation III design for Pokemon Trainer, but that doesn't mean much since it's just the latest design.(this is basically obvious in every game where he always does so, Other M!Samus is taken, regardless of its popularity) As for calling him Red, that is blatantly false information. Which, you know, he is undeniable called Pokemon Trainer and referred to as such in all official Smash Bros. media. It's speculation he's Red, not a fact. Do not list blatantly false information for a nickname and obvious preferences. Also, I did not say he was Ash, we know he has some references to him at best. What they are are speculation too, so any Trivia on here actually needs to be removed since it's all pure speculation. As for "Why is Pokemon Trainer not referred to as Red in his trophy description", it's because he's not Red. That's all there is to it. I did make a mistake about the Ash information and I apologize(even if that's probably why he chose them). [http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1970393/pokemon_in_super_smash_bros_how_theyre_selected.html This is also proof of how they're selected. So to say it's just based upon the Games, that's kind of false. Also, since he really doesn't look at the games much at all, but the Anime, Red being in is pretty much completely unbelievable.]<small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:HyperFalcon|HyperFalcon]] ([[User talk:HyperFalcon|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/HyperFalcon|contribs]]) 03:48, 29 July 2013 (EDT)</small>
:::::Dude, it's unbelievable except for the fact that Red is in the game. That argument holds no water. Just because he looks at the anime to see what Pokémon are popular doesn't mean he doesn't garner inspiration for the game. <span style="font-family:Triforce, sans-serif;">'''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=#008000>D<font color=#008019>o<font color=#008031>c<font color=#008049>t<font color=#008062>o<font color=#008080>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]'''</span> 04:20, 29 July 2013 (EDT)
::::::You're basing this off a "costume" and not any actual evidence. We already know he's not called Red in the games or official media. Treating him as such in the actual series doesn't work. At least as a fact. It's great people want to believe he is Red, but that doesn't actually make him Red. Until Sakurai actually states he's literally Red, and not a Pokemon Trainer(generic) as the game officially specifies, calling him Red on here is entirely speculation. Do you have any evidence by Sakurai or the game itself that refers to him as Red? If not, then it's nothing more than speculation.[[User:HyperFalcon|HyperFalcon]] ([[User talk:HyperFalcon|talk]]) 04:35, 29 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::::The costume and overall character design is actually actual evidence. I don't understand how you can possibly think otherwise. Compare the two. They're clearly the same thing. It's not speculation. He's called Pokémon Trainer because in the Pokémon games, you can name him, much like the [[Villager]] in Animal Crossing. The article's name isn't Red because he's not referred to that by the game, but for Trivia purposes, saying he's Red is not incorrect. If you want to make a case, actually give evidence to state he's ''not'' Red; don't just say "Sakurai didn't say he's Red, so he's not" when they're clearly identical. <span style="font-family:Triforce, sans-serif;">'''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=#008000>D<font color=#008019>o<font color=#008031>c<font color=#008049>t<font color=#008062>o<font color=#008080>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]'''</span> 04:40, 29 July 2013 (EDT)
::::::::Why can't people fucking look at [http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Red_%28game%29#In_the_Super_Smash_Bros._series this]? Bulbapedia says it's Red. We should too. [[User:Scr7|<font style="color:#0000FF">S</font><font style="color:#7F7FFF">c</font><font style="color:#00FFFF">r</font>]][[User talk:Scr7|<font style="color:#FF7F00">7</font>]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] 04:46, 29 July 2013 (EDT)
(indent reset) I didn't link that, because I don't want him to start a shitstorm about this over there, too. <span style="font-family:Triforce, sans-serif;">'''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=#008000>D<font color=#008019>o<font color=#008031>c<font color=#008049>t<font color=#008062>o<font color=#008080>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]'''</span> 04:48, 29 July 2013 (EDT)
::Thank you for not linking an unreliable source of information that never cited any of that. I checked there too. They speculated it basing it upon nothing but a costume design. Sakurai only takes from the latest games(sometimes) for costumes... because it's the most up to date design. Also, sorry, but him using Kanto Pokemon is the reason to design him like the Kanto Trainer. If it was a different set of Pokemon from a different region, it'd be of that version. All of that is useless speculation based upon "He looks like this, therefore, he must be this." That's speculation. Until actual evidence that he is legitimately Red(Bulbapedia is not evidence, nor is his physical design real evidence either, since his name and Trophy, which are more usable than that), we need to remove false information and keep it to actual official information. The official information says he is Pokemon Trainer. Sakurai only says he's not Ash. Sakurai does not once mention him being Red, nor does any other non-fan-created information do so as well.(Bulbapedia's article was completely fan-made)
::''They speculated it basing it upon nothing but a costume design.''

::The character is identical. There's no refuting that. You can't just say "it's only a costume". That fact, paired with the fact that the facial features and body structure is identical, is quite significant.

::''Sakurai only takes from the latest games(sometimes) for costumes... because it's the most up to date design.''

::Wrong? He takes pretty much everything from the latest games, including characters, items, stages, etc., but that's beside the point. You're forgetting that Diamond and Pearl existed long before Brawl came out, but Sakurai opted for Red's FireRed and LeafGreen design instead. This is beacuse he decided to put Red in the game. The only reason he's not called Red, is because his name is customizable, and most people in the world don't know him as Red. Stop being dumb.

::''Also, sorry, but him using Kanto Pokemon is the reason to design him like the Kanto Trainer.''

::And who is the kanto trainer? Red.

::''Until actual evidence that he is legitimately Red(Bulbapedia is not evidence, nor is his physical design real evidence either, since his name and Trophy, which are more usable than that), we need to remove false information and keep it to actual official information.''

::His trophy says he was in FireRed and LeafGreen, which Red was in, as they are the same. Again, give us evidence that he is legitimately not Red. <span style="font-family:Triforce, sans-serif;">'''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=#008000>D<font color=#008019>o<font color=#008031>c<font color=#008049>t<font color=#008062>o<font color=#008080>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]'''</span> 05:04, 29 July 2013 (EDT)
Did you read the Trophy? Because it nor the game ''calls'' him Red. Therefore, you can't just call him Red with coincidental evidence. He can have all the designs and similarities to Red all he wants. But no official media states he's Red, just speculated ones. That's already 100% proof right there. Find an official source of him being called Red. Till then, you're using anecdotal evidence, not assumptions using a costume.(and yes, it's just a design, no more, no less) You see, this could work if they didn't name him Link despite looking like it, but there's absolutely no similar instances of Pokemon Trainer in all of Smash. Every character has a specific name, but him, for understandable reasons. His costume does not matter. His actual name, Trophy Description, official Website, and official media does. Which nothing states him as Red. Only ''fan'' media states him as Red. Bulbapedia is completely fan-created and actually was wrong on the issue too(making assumptions based upon anecdotal evidence, not unrefutable proof he's Red, which you don't have). As nobody else does nor has shown. The only reliable sources would be an official website, Sakurai himself, Nintendo, or Gamefreak. None of them have stated this whatsoever.[[User:HyperFalcon|HyperFalcon]] ([[User talk:HyperFalcon|talk]]) 05:10, 29 July 2013 (EDT)

:Thanks for completely failing to respond to any of the points I have brought up. I will not be responding again until you actually address what I have argued. <span style="font-family:Triforce, sans-serif;">'''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=#008000>D<font color=#008019>o<font color=#008031>c<font color=#008049>t<font color=#008062>o<font color=#008080>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]'''</span> 05:12, 29 July 2013 (EDT)

:There wasn't anything that wasn't already refuted. It's because he chose the Kanto Pokemon due to him using the Anime(as he always does officially) that we got a Kanto Trainer, not because he chose Red so he could use Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur. You keep talking about Red's customizable name, but that isn't a good point due to Link being the exact same situation. What is Link called in Smash? Yes. Link is proof he has never once does this. Same with Young and Toon Link. And Ness. And Lucas.(you name all of them yourself, and official media is the only thing that gives them that name, in Smash and original games)) He just wanted a generic Trainer in, and the Trophy outright says it's a generic Trainer. They're identical only in physical design, but in nothing else. Another thing that proves this wrong is that Link in the first game cannot use a Boomerang. He's Adult Link from OOT. Sakurai isn't exactly keen on putting in correct stuff either, but every time he puts something in, he is very specific to what it is. The trophy point isn't as notable when he's made some mistakes too. The changes in the US version quite often leave out information. Take the Cloaking Device in Melee. It has different origins in each version. Perfect Dark in the Japanese version and "Unknown" in the US version. However, the Pokemon Trainer trophy is too vague on the Red stuff to really tell if he is or not. As of now, there's no perfect evidence he ''is'' Red, but there are signs he may be at best. There is clear proof he is a generic Trainer. Anyway, I was only putting in verified information and removing speculation.(which, yes, Red being in there is not verified by any official source, and is speculated since it seems like he is him). But this conversation is over, since I respect that people don't wish to put the stated facts down instead of just some speculation.[[User:HyperFalcon|HyperFalcon]] ([[User talk:HyperFalcon|talk]]) 05:45, 29 July 2013 (EDT)

== Pokémon TV ==

[http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pok%C3%A9mon_TV There is an app for iOS Devices called ''Pokémon TV''.] Pokemon: Origins is currently in circulation on this app, and Red is featured in these episodes. This would mean that Pokémon TV is his most recent appearance. <span style="font-family:AR JULIAN; font-size:12pt">[[User:ChuckNorris24|<span style="color:orange">Chuck</span>]][[User talk:ChuckNorris24|<span style="color:black">Norris</span>]]</span>[[File:24.png|23px]] 18:59, 11 October 2013 (EDT)

:"Most recent appearance" refers to a character's most recent appearance in a video game, not media in general. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 20:20, 11 October 2013 (EDT)
:And in general, there are tons of characters based on Red across various media. ([[bulbapedia:Red (Pocket Monsters)|1]] [[bulbapedia:Red (Adventures)|2]] [[bulbapedia:Red (Ruby-Sapphire)|3]] [[bulbapedia:Ash Ketchum|4]] [[bulbapedia:Ash Ketchum (EToP)|5]] [[bulbapedia:Satoshi (Zensho)|6]]?) Red's incarnation in Origins is no more relevant to the game version than any of these. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 21:25, 11 October 2013 (EDT)

== Disconfirmation ==

So on the "characters" page should we remove the indeterminate icon for Pokemon Trainer and he is ''officially'' disconfirmed for ''Smash 4''? [[:User:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|ZeldaStarfoxfan2164]] ([[User talk:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|talk]]) is bad for me  23:06, 8 April 2014 (EDT)
:It's not official, since he could be back in some unknown form, but the evidence is currently formidible enough to note it on the page. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Chilled 23:09, 8 April 2014 (EDT)
::I mean as a playable character. [[:User:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|ZeldaStarfoxfan2164]] ([[User talk:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|talk]]) is bad for me  23:11, 8 April 2014 (EDT)
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@@ Line 78: / Line 78: @@
 :It's not official, since he could be back in some unknown form, but the evidence is currently formidible enough to note it on the page. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Chilled 23:09, 8 April 2014 (EDT)
 ::I mean as a playable character. [[:User:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|ZeldaStarfoxfan2164]] ([[User talk:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|talk]]) is bad for me  23:11, 8 April 2014 (EDT)
-:::Unless an official source outright says PT is deconfirmed, he is still a viable character. He could come in without Charizard in some way. '''''[[User:HavocReaper48|<span style="color:GOLDENROD; font-family:envirod;">--HavocReaper</span>]][[User talk:HavocReaper48|<span style="color:GOLD; font-family:envirod;">48</span>]]''''' 23:13, 8 April 2014 (EDT)
-:::He could feasibly come back in a version where he fights himself, or uses a single pokemon, so the intermediate symbol on the character list is still more appropriate even if he's not coming back in his Brawl form. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 23:19, 8 April 2014 (EDT)
-== The two reverts ==
-Firstly, why should Poke Ball Pokemon articles should still be categorized in "Pokemon universe" and have a said template to represent it in a list for all things Pokemon even though it already has a template which shows which Pokemon can pop out of a Poke Ball. Secondly, why isn't Pokemon Origins counts as a appearance but Pokemon TV does?
-I had two edits undid even though I though it would of been right so I was wondering why it wasn't. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Link OoT Dots.PNG|16px]] The 80's 12:05, 12 June 2014 (EDT)
-== a gallery ==
-can there be a gallery of all the trainers in the games?  i'm [[:User:Valehd|Valehd]] the smashbro pro!([[User talk:Valehd|talk]])tawlk 2 teh catholic pokemon master 14:03, 5 April 2015 (EDT)
-  Sorry to disappoint you, but they probably won't seeing as they do not make any appearances in Super Smash Bros.[[File:SpikyUnicorn832.png|16px]][[User: SpikyUnicorn832|<span style="color: turquoise">] '''Spiky</span>]][[User:SpikyUnicorn832|<span style="color: maroon;">'''Unicorn832'''</span>]]
-== Move to "Red"? ==
-I feel like we should move this page to '''Red''', since that's the character. We have [[Samus Aran]] and [[Fox McCloud]] instead of {{SSB4|Samus}} and {{SSB4|Fox}}, why should Red/Pokemon Trainer be any different? (This would take some changes to the page to actually include information on Red, but we should probably have that anyway, since, again, that's who he is.) <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]] </small>  18:28, 11 June 2015 (EDT)
-:Every other instance of that is just full names for characters who go by a shorthand in Smash for the CSS, and the full names are often referenced in official material for Smash as well. Nowhere has the Pokemon Trainer who appears in Brawl/4 ever been referred to as "Red" in Smash media. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 18:41, 11 June 2015 (EDT)
-::So you're saying that if they called Mario "Bob" we would name the page Bob? None of the other Pokemon Trainers are relevant to the SSB series, since Red is the only one who appears in the game. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]] </small>  18:43, 11 June 2015 (EDT)
-:::"Pop quiz! What do Misty, Brock, Cynthia, Iris, and Ash all have in common? That's right-- they're all Pokémon Trainers!" [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 18:46, 11 June 2015 (EDT)
-::::that would imply we also need to change [[Villager]]'s page to be relevant to Chip, Jack, Blanca, etc. We don't have pages dedicated to anything else that's trophy-exclusive, and Red is the only Pokemon Trainer who isn't. And he's a fighter, which gets precedence. Name one other Pokemon Trainer who is a fighter. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]] </small>  18:49, 11 June 2015 (EDT)
-:::::You completely missed my point. Every description of the Smash Pokemon Trainer implies that they are using Red's appearance without loss of generality. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 18:52, 11 June 2015 (EDT)
-::::::They then noted that this Pokemon Master in the making is the same, which, although it doesn't call him Red, makes it clear that he's a unique character. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]] </small>  18:57, 11 June 2015 (EDT)
-:::::::Since you're obviously unwilling to hear my point on that grounds, let me use the other grounds: every other character page with a different name than the CSS name is a name that the character is referred to in Smash media. Without a Smash-specific source that refers to this Red-based design as "Red", there's no basis to move it whatsoever. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 18:59, 11 June 2015 (EDT)
-::::::::I strongly disagree, since he's the only trainer with that design, uses those three pokemon in Silver (well, Blastoise and Venusaur, but close enough), and is referred to as a unique character in his SSB4 trophy (although unnamed, Red is the only unique trainer with this design, again). Either way, more opinions would be nice. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]] </small>  19:03, 11 June 2015 (EDT)
-::::::::: I <b> disagree </b> with this proposal. The character is never referred to as Red, and should be regarded by his official <i>Smash</i> name (Pokémon Trainer) and not his Pokémon name, no matter how much he looks like Red. [[User:John3637881|John]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 19:18, 11 June 2015 (EDT)
-::::::::::I disagree as well as he is never referred to as Red in Smash. --{{User|Skittles}}
-::::::::::Really? While I personally think that the "MegaMan Volnutt" page should have a space between the "Mega" and "Man", we should obviously keep it as Pokémon Trainer because that's the official name for him. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] The Belmont 21:29, 11 June 2015 (EDT)
-== please merge ==
-can we merge squirtle and ivysaur with this page??  i'm [[:User:Valehd|Valehd]] the smashbro pro!([[User talk:Valehd|talk]])tawlk 2 teh catholic pokemon master 17:22, 25 July 2015 (EDT)
-=="Leaf"==
-Since I've seen this discussion in the edit summaries, might as well open this to discussion. As far as I know there is no official confirmation that the female's name is "Green", and even so, her design is based off the original concept for a female trainer, and not the current trainer represented in Smash. While you can argue that since the female protagonist has no official name and thus should be called "Green", remember that differences in naming the protagonist in remakes can happen, as per the Kris/Lyra situation from the Johto games. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 18:33, 16 November 2018 (EST)
-:I was going to add it here as well. In regards to the name of the female Trainer, we should only change it if ''Bulbapedia'' does as it is now a current debate on there because of the female character's appearance in "Let's Go". Until then, we should keep her current "canon" name, being "Leaf". Otherwise we'd be arguing something that is better discussed on Bulbapedia. ("if they change it" I mean, change the page from Leaf_(Game) to Green_(Game). They ''might'' change it. Who knows? [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 18:41, 16 November 2018 (EST)
-Apparently the decision to change the female protagonist on Bulbapedia has been reached. At least for the time being, Bulbapedia is going with '''Green''' because of ''Let's Go''. However, Bulbapedia still refers to the version of the girl as '''Leaf''' in her appearance for ''FireRed & LeafGreen''. I view this as a similar case to Zelda's current profile picture. Despite Zelda's most recent appearance being BotW, she uses her ALBW art as that is, one of, the basis of her most recent appearance in ''Smash'', being ''Ultimate''. Because the female Pokémon Trainer is specifically based on her appearance from ''FireRed & LeafGreen'' in ''Smash Ultimate'', she should be referred to as name used for those games, being '''Leaf'''. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 23:15, 18 November 2018 (EST)
-Green is her canonical name and the first times she is named in a pokemon games, and was also named Green in the manga, Leaf was her non-official name giving by fan. Her name is now green on bulbapedia https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Green_(game)[[User:Jf811|Jf811]] ([[User talk:Jf811|talk]]) 18:18, 19 November 2018 (EST)
-:On the same page, it states that "As the player character in Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen, she is known as Leaf," and her design is based off the FR/LG version. I believe it should still stay as Leaf for now. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 18:46, 19 November 2018 (EST)
-:It should also be noted that the manga names are not consistent with the playable character names. Eg. Calem is called X and Serena is called Y in the manga. The only consistent one is Red and Blue/Green (the male rival). [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 18:48, 19 November 2018 (EST)
-:::It's worth noting that, according to her [https://twitter.com/kotobukiyas/status/1048377301530947584 official figurine], the ''FireRed/LeafGreen'' design is named "Leaf". [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 18:30, 19 November 2018 (EST)
-::::Remember: [[SmashWiki is not official]], please read it over for more information. Just because ''Bulbapdia'' uses "Green", "Leaf" is more well known. Bulbapdia ''also'' uses "Leaf" when referring to the female player in ''FireRed & LeafGreen''. At least for the time being, it should be the more commonly known/used "Leaf". [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 18:53, 19 November 2018 (EST)
-:::::It doesn't matter that SmashWiki is not official -- she is officially called Leaf as well as Green. Read the name section on Bulbapedia: she is called Leaf in the data of FRLG as well as the figurine DryKirby64 just cited.
-:::::The differentiation seems to be that the female player in FRLG is Leaf and the beta female characted from RGBY is Green, just like Kris (from Crystal) and Lyra (from HGSS). Leaf is the only one that appears in Smash. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 19:41, 19 November 2018 (EST)
-::::::What I meant by "not official" was not that neither was official. They both are! Is that "Leaf" is the more ''associated'' name of the character(s). [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 20:14, 19 November 2018 (EST)
-:::::::From my knowledge as a Pokémon fan, Leaf was a name voted on by Bulbagarden Forums because the female protagonist didn't have one, the name ended up sticking and even made it into official merchandise. There is no evidence that she was originally called Leaf, but it's been 14 years since Gen 1 remakes came out, so the name is pretty much solidified as the protag's actual name. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 20:31, 19 November 2018 (EST)
-In case anyone was still on the fence on the female trainer's name, [https://twitter.com/PokemonMasters/status/1219318714652418051 Pokemon Masters] has '''officially''' referred to the female trainer from FireRed&LeafGreen as "Leaf". Meaning, that Green/Blue in Let's Go (and other appearances) is a completely separate character. And that the character we've referred to as "Leaf" unofficially will stay as "leaf", but now officially. [[Special:Contributions/66.194.104.5|66.194.104.5]] 15:56, January 21, 2020 (EST)
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