Editing Talk:Ness

"There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up '''until now'''"
-[http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/lucas.html#2nd Lucas: Special Moves], [http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/index.html Smash Bros. Dojo!!]

"So '''until now''', I’ve always made sure to include handicaps in each game in the series."
-[http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/various/various12.html Handicap], [http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/index.html Smash Bros. Dojo!!]

Notice how they are worded similar? (the "until now" part). Sakurai used the phrase "until now" for both the already confirmed Handicaps, and the currently unconfirmed, Ness. Should this be mentioned in the article? - [[User:Pokemon DP|Pokemon DP]]

:too soon, it's basically speculation. give it some more time, i'm sure they'll release more news on Ness. '''[[User:Silverdragon706|FyreNWater]]''' -  <small>([[User talk:Silverdragon706|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/FyreNWater|Contributions]] )</small> 13:45, November 16, 2007 (EST)

:Well Its unknow yet, It's not a coincidence that of the 12 original characters the only four don't being confirmed are the secrets ones? I'm don't thonk they would take out C.Falcon or Luigi. --[[User:Fandangox|Fandangox]] 16:46, November 16, 2007 (EST)

==Changes==
I made a lot of changes to Ness's (long and ungrammatical) character description, as well as the trivia section. <small>[[User:movie138music|movie138music]] - ([[User_Talk:movie138music|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/movie138music|contribs]])</small> 15:24, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

== Debut ==

Why is it necessary to note both the American and the Japanese release dates and titles? We didn't do this on any other character's page. For example, Link's bio doesn't say "Debut: The Legend of Zelda/Zelda no Densetsu: Hyrule Fantasy (1986 in Japan, 1897 in America and Europe)". [[User:Krisi|Krisi]] ([[User talk:Krisi|talk]]) 18:21, 9 September 2011 (EDT)
:I really don't see the necessity either. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:22, 9 September 2011 (EDT)
::Because it's part of the basic information of the game that other users will probably just change if we opt not to include it. '''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=red>Ƌ<font color=#DC0000>o<font color=#A50000>ӄ<font color=#6E0000>ԏ<font color=#370000>o<font color=black>яΠ</font>ɛ</font>ə</font>и</font>9</font>9</font>]]''' [[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|<sub>{ROLLBACKER}</sub>]] 20:44, 9 September 2011 (EDT)
:::Japanese name is not always necessary because usually it is basically the same title as the American version. However, Smash actually calls the game here "Earthbound/Mother 2". However, release dates for major regions should be included, because, as DP said, it is basic information. [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 00:43, 10 September 2011 (EDT)
::::Then why don't we include EVERY region' first release of the given game on every character's page? Just tell me why this is EXTREMELY important to do on Ness's page, but not important at all on let's say Samus's? [[User:Krisi|Krisi]] ([[User talk:Krisi|talk]]) 04:03, 10 September 2011 (EDT)
:::::Keep in mind, some things may not be consistent across all pages due to it simply not being done yet, rather than us making a decision to keep it that way. For this issue, since the section concerns the character's first ever debut in a game, we should just include the date on that, and not cram in other regions' release dates in the infobox.

:::::Also, if going for emphasis, it would be preferable to use '''bold''' or ''italic'' text, rather than ALL CAPS. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 04:16, 10 September 2011 (EDT)
::::::I will agree with removing it from character pages if we keep it on game pages. '''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=red>Ƌ<font color=#DC0000>o<font color=#A50000>ӄ<font color=#6E0000>ԏ<font color=#370000>o<font color=black>яΠ</font>ɛ</font>ə</font>и</font>9</font>9</font>]]''' [[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|<sub>{ROLLBACKER}</sub>]] 10:40, 10 September 2011 (EDT)
== Um ==
....., why aren't Ness's eyes blue, I made that edit because they look so in Super Smash Bros. [[User:Marioisawesome118|Marioisawesome118]] ([[User talk:Marioisawesome118|talk]]) 19:48, 27 December 2011 (EST)[[File:MarioHeadSSBM.png|19px]]
:They actually black. his eyes may appear blue to you but please don't add anything false. [[User:.....|.....]] [[User talk:.....|Happy]] [[Special:Contributions/.....|New Year]] [[File:GanondorfHeadSSBB.png|19px]] 20:00, 27 December 2011 (EST)

== Super Mario Maker as his latest appearance ==

Does SMM count as Ness's most recent non-smash appearance? --[[User:Smugsamodas|Smugsamodas]] ([[User talk:Smugsamodas|talk]]) 15:04, 12 September 2015 (EDT)
:That's a hard call. I would lean on the side of yes. This is actually his first playable appearance outside of Smash since EarthBound. Let's let the admins decide. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">PK SMAAAASH!!</span>]]</b> 15:07, 12 September 2015 (EDT)
::I'm leaning towards omitting SMM; see my talk page for the reasoning (short version: it's Mario in a Ness costume, not Ness). [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 15:11, 12 September 2015 (EDT)
:::I'm currently considering SMM as Ness' most recent non-''Smash'' appearance. We all have different opinions though! [[User:INoMed|INoMed]], <span style="color:orange">King of</span> <span style="color:red">Demons</span> ([[User talk:INoMed|Talk]]) 15:22, 12 September 2015 (EDT)

== Add in that Earthbound is Ness’s only real appearance or remove it from Lucas’s page ==

From Ness cameoed in Mother 3 as a zombie who was never explicitly stated to be Ness. Lucas’s appearance as a costume in Mario Maker is more of Lucas than that appearance from Ness. Either we stop counting Ness as appearing in Moher 3, or we start counting Mario Maker costumes as full cameos. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 01:56, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
:That makes zero sense? Granted, I don't know the context of his Mother 3 appearance, but an implied appearance as a zombie is in no way comparable to a costume that is designed to look like a character. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 01:58, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
::That’s the thing. The implied appearance as a zombie is pretty much speculation. We don’t know if that’s actually Ness. Hell, the only real resemblance is the clothing. The Mario Maker costume is clearly Lucas, and actually clearly shows him fully. The Mario Maker costumes aren’t like those in Bayonetta either. Bayonetta looks like she just stole Fox’s clothed in her Fox costume. By comparison, the Fox costume in Mario Maker has Fox’s full body, and is very clearly a full cameo. I’d argue that they’re more of a cameo than the Ness zombie, since it’s clearly meant to be said character and not just a little nod to the character (I’m not sure how to explain it, but the fact that Mario Maker costumes aren’t counted as cameos by this wiki is frankly ridiculous). The Mario Maker costumes are just as much of a cameo as the Ice Climbers’ cameos in WarioWare games are, and I have no idea why we don’t count them. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 02:05, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
:::I don't plan on contributing much to this discussion, personally, but I'd like to make a few statements:
:::*The zombie in Mother 3 is [[wikibound:Zombie Man|generically named]], but does have similarities to Ness, with the (albeit torn) clothes; that said, it is never explicitly stated to ''be'' Ness.
:::*In the grand scheme of things, a costume ''is'' different from a cameo appearance; Lloyd Irving, for example, makes an ''appearance as a costume'' in Smash 4, while Silver the Hedgehog makes a ''cameo appearance'' in the background of Green Hill Zone.
::::*Trophies are different, and we [[King K. Rool (SSBU)#Trivia|have established such before]].
:::[[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 02:22, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
::::Normally, I would agree with you that a costume is different from a cameo. But with the way Mario Maker handles it when compared to other games, I was thinking we should make an exception for cases like that. Mii costumes are just that: the hair and the clothes. Mario Maker costumes are a full sprite that bears no resemblance to Mario appearance-wise. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 02:31, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
I'm convinced that Ness's "Mother 3 cameo" is [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgIpjyyW_JA this] as opposed to the Zombie Man similarity. [[Jeff]] also has his last appearance listed as Mother 3 for presumably the same reason. [[File:NokiiSig.png|link=User_talk:Nokii]] '''[[User:Nokii|{{color|#89d|Nokii}}]]''' —  02:40, June 28, 2019 (EDT)

(edit conflict, @Lou Cena) Okay, here's a different example: in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3, each character (barring Magneto) has an alternate DLC costume that changes their appearance entirely, much more drastically than one of their recolors. Multiple characters have costumes that make them other characters - Ghost Rider's is 2099 Ghost Rider, Shuma-Gorath's is Quoggoth, Akuma's is Cyber-Akuma, Zero's is Mega Man X - but they're just ''costumes'', not the actual character themselves. It's the same deal as Super Mario Maker, albeit to a lesser extent since the original character is used as a basis (and the Costume Mario costumes don't use anything from Mario other than his sprite size), but it is still the same deal, since it's an appearance change that is meant to be a ''costume'' of the character rather than the character themselves. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 02:49, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
:A cameo is a cameo. The ''Mario Maker'' “costumes” are suppose to be the said character. Even if they weren’t, it’s still a cameo. Even if it was just a remote picture in a level, it would still count. I don’t know what the zombie stuff is, but I do know the ''Earthbound'' cast cameoed in the movie theater in ''Mother 3'', which counts as a cameo. A cameo just needs the characters’ appearance to count (face specifically), like Peach and Mario’s pictures in ''Zelda''. Actual costumes, like in ''Bayonetta'', are more of a reference as it’s not the character themselves. The Lloyd, Chocobo, and Lip costumes in ''Smash'' are references, the ones in ''Mario Maker'' are cameos. [[Special:Contributions/47.199.39.81|47.199.39.81]] 02:50, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
::Thank you. That’s what I was trying to say. I just didn’t know how to properly explain it. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 03:33, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
:::Except it is still Mario. If Mario is hit by an enemy, the costume falls off. It's still just clothes that resemble the character. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 09:34, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
::::That may be true, but that is still a full-on cameo from the characters in the costumes. Like I and that IP said, the costumes in Mario Maker use a full sprite with no resemblance to Mario, complete with sound effects, even if it is a costume gameplay-wise. The mii costumes are still clearly miis. The Mario Maker costumes are more like cameos pasted onto a costume than actual costumes. It’s like saying that Sonic’s cameo in Rad Mobile isn’t a thing because he was a part of the car you were driving. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 13:55, June 28, 2019 (EDT)

We've been over this repeatedly. A character appearing in an in-universe capacity like a movie screen counts as a cameo appearance. A different character wearing a costume based on them does not. This is a long-established standard on this wiki and there's zero basis for changing it. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 14:03, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
:As I stated repeatedly, the Super Mario Maker costumes are more than “just based on the character”. It’s a full sprite with sound effects, rather than simply a costume like the Mii ones. I agree that costumes shouldn’t count in most cases (I’m not debating on changing that rule), but the way Super Mario Maker handles them is moreso a cameo than anything else. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 14:10, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
::It's literally called {{s|mariowiki|Costume Mario}}. There's not really any ambiguity or room for debate on this one. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 14:18, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
:::Per this. It's literally just Mario in a costume, and not a cameo. I really don't know any better way to explain it to you. [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 14:21, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
::::Reiterating my point, a costume, regardless of how much it resembles the character, is a costume. Frank West and Zero both have Mega Man X as their DLC costumes in UMvC3, and while Frank's is more of a "costume" than Zero's (since he can dress up as X in Dead Rising, while Zero takes on X's full appearance), both are still costumes. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 14:36, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
:::::I would think this is different considering the point of the costumes and how they're handled in the game, allowing him to "transform" into the said characters. Personally? I ''would'' count it. But I guess the "transformation" is not what everyone is getting at. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 14:45, June 28, 2019 (EDT)

== Sprite image in origin section ==

I added the American clay model to be consistant with other character pages that had another image in the origin section based on their original appearence, but since his American clay model design was never used in Smash I see why it was unneeded. But how would his sprite be since his smash design uses the original clay model design, which is based on his sprite?<span style="font-family: Algerian; font-size:12pt"> '''[[User: supatoad64|<span style="color:dodgerblue;"> Supa </span>]] [[User talk: supatoad64|<span style="color:dodgerblue;"> Toad 64 </span>]]''' </span> [[ Image: MK64ToadCSP.jpg|20px  ]] 09:25, July 30, 2019 (EDT)
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 I added the American clay model to be consistant with other character pages that had another image in the origin section based on their original appearence, but since his American clay model design was never used in Smash I see why it was unneeded. But how would his sprite be since his smash design uses the original clay model design, which is based on his sprite?<span style="font-family: Algerian; font-size:12pt"> '''[[User: supatoad64|<span style="color:dodgerblue;"> Supa </span>]] [[User talk: supatoad64|<span style="color:dodgerblue;"> Toad 64 </span>]]''' </span> [[ Image: MK64ToadCSP.jpg|20px  ]] 09:25, July 30, 2019 (EDT)
-== Problems editing trivia sections ==
-Hello. I am trying to rewrite one of the bullet points in the trivia section. Specifically, I was trying to replace this bullet point:
-"The "PK" prefix in most of Ness's (as well as Lucas's) special moves originates from EarthBound Beginnings, where it is used to denote PSI moves that directly inflict damage on an enemy (thus, PSI Magnet is excluded due to being unable to do so, barring customization). All instances of "PK" were changed to "PSI" in EarthBound for unknown reasons."
-I had written up text that aimed to better clarify the point, and provide a bit more context about where PK is used in the Earthbound/Mother series (for instance it's not quite the case that it's used for PSI moves that inflict damage, since PK Flash did not do that in the main series). However, when I tried to save this edit, I get an error with the code "Smashing". I also get automatically logged out. Furthermore, when trying to post the text I had drafted here, it causes the same issue. Is there a problem with the text I am trying to add in that is triggering some kind of filter? [[User:Perathian|Perathian]] ([[User talk:Perathian|talk]]) 23:14, November 28, 2023 (EST)
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