Editing Talk:Nerf

__TOC__
Seems reasonable. When the SSBB tier list comes out, there will defintely be changes and revises. [[User:ItemHazard|ItemHazard]] 20:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC) ItemHazard

Are you sure about the whole "moves nerfed" thing? We're clearly talking about entire characters.
:Please sign your comments. And saying an entire CHARACTER was nerfed would imply that said character was previously terribly unbalanced, which wasn't the case. In addition, some characters have had one move nerfed and another buffed, like Kirby.- [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] ([[User talk:Gargomon251|talk]]) 21:51, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

== Yoshi? ==

Exactly how did he get nerfed in Brawl? <span style="color:#4CBB17">--Posted by</span> [[User:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">Pikamander2</span>]] <small>[[User Talk:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">(Talk)</span>]]</small> at 17:39, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
:You need to read the section header. "Characters that got attacks nerfed." Then, read the section I linked you to, [[Yoshi_%28SSBB%29#Changes_from_Melee_to_Brawl]]. His smashes are weaker; Yoshi Bomb is weaker; Egg Toss got nerfed, even if it got buffed in other ways; Egg Roll was nerfed.  Perhaps you should have discussed before reverting?  --[[User:Shadowcrest|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest</font>]] 14:51, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
::After I placed ^^that^^ comment, I waited several days, but nobody gave a reason. So I removed Yoshi from the list. When you reverted it, I didn't notice the link, which is why I said to give a good reason. I re-added Yoshi to the list, but I really think that we should list which attacks a character had nerfed, instead of just saying that their attacks got nerfed in general. <span style="color:#4CBB17">--Posted by</span> [[User:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">Pikamander2</span>]] <small>[[User Talk:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">(Talk)</span>]]</small> at 21:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm sorry, I was far ruder than necessary above. I apologize; that was uncalled for.
:::I agree that the current section is far too broad, since I'm sure (not ''sure'', but generally convinced) that most veteran characters will have had a move or something else nerfed from melee to brawl. However, I don't think listing each trait that was nerfed is the best option, because the page would get to be long and unweildy. But I can't think of any other conceivable method to do it. Suggestions?  --[[User:Shadowcrest|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest</font>]] 21:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

==Hmm...delete!==

<s>'''Delete''' - This is a bit of a dubious article in the first place. Our focus should really be on ''how'' the characters play and not ''how well'' they play. Since so much is dependent on individual player styles and skill levels, not to mention that all the games play on completely different physics engines, you can't objectively say whether one move is "better" than it was. Granted, there are some obvious ones like Peach's down-smash that are indisputable, but I don't think there's any need for it to be captured in an article. --<font color="000023">'''[[User:Randall00|RJM]]'''</font> <sup>''[[User talk:Randall00|Talk]]''</sup> 20:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC)</s>

'''Delete''' - This is basically just a small tier list that anyone can edit. <span style="color:#4CBB17">--Posted by</span> [[User:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">Pikamander2</span>]] <small>[[User Talk:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">(Talk)</span>]]</small> at 21:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

'''Keep.''' Nerfing/buffing strikes me to be somewhat akin to [[clone]]s; something that's not official, somewhat left up to individual judgment, but nonetheless a definite topic of discussion in the community. Documenting that so-and-so's back air now does less damage and/or knockback is less subjective than, say, the tier list, so I don't think there's a problem with subjectivity. I believe this stuff has been researched to some degree, but I leave it an exercise to the reader to find the appropriate SWF threads. But even if the page does suggest something about a character being better or worse, it needn't be normative--that is, it can describe general sentiments in the community without authoritatively declaring them to be truth. (BTW, Randall, you probably should tack on a delete tag to the article if you're really nominating it.) --[[User:Kirby King|<font color="red"><b><i>Kirby King</i></b></font>]] 21:27, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

:Again, I think because you're dealing with two fundamentally different gaming platforms, the red flag of subjectivity is automatically raised. A character's "strength" is relative to the game in which they appear. You wouldn't describe [[Lucas (SSBB)]] as a clone of [[Ness (SSBM)]] in the same way that it's meaningless to say that Mario's back air is stronger in Brawl than it was in Melee because the conditions that affect the move's power are not equal. If a character's overall strength is being graded on uneven playing fields, I don't think objectivity is achievable. Oddly though, my own reasoning makes it perfectly okay to discuss how a clone character was nerfed within his own game (i.e. Luigi Cyclone > Mario Tornado) :^) --<font color="000023">'''[[User:Randall00|RJM]]'''</font> <sup>''[[User talk:Randall00|Talk]]''</sup> 21:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

:: That's a case for not taking things too literally, I guess, when it comes to things like how much damage a move does, etc. I would still say there's enough of a general sentiment that "nerfing" exists (and to some extent who it affects) that would at minimum warrant an article discussing what nerfing is/means, and probably (obvious) examples of characters/moves being nerfed. I don't even think it matters whether or not this would be considered subjective, because the article does not need to describe what is as much as it might describe what the community thinks is; it's the difference between [[tier list]] saying that "Meta Knight is better than Captain Falcon" and "The SBR says Meta Knight is better than Captain Falcon". It's certainly within the scope of SmashWiki to report on subjective issues, if the subjectivity can be objectively documented. :) --[[User:Kirby King|<font color="red"><b><i>Kirby King</i></b></font>]] 22:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

:::Righto, makes sense to me. So shift the focus away from who got nerfed to what nerfed means, citing the obvious examples but leaving nothing subjectively questionable without reporting the source of the subjectivity. Objectively. :^) --<font color="000023">'''[[User:Randall00|RJM]]'''</font> <sup>''[[User talk:Randall00|Talk]]''</sup> 02:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

'''Keep''' - Per the discussion below, the article should be kept, but should be cleaned up into less of a list of characters and more of an explanation about nerfed characters and some good examples. --<font color="000023">'''[[User:Randall00|RJM]]'''</font> <sup>''[[User talk:Randall00|Talk]]''</sup> 02:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


'''Keep''' - wat is up with people and deleting? the info, no matter how useless, can always be called upon for later. i think this page is too vague: it needs more info. hit me back with why u wont it gone.

'''Keep''' - There's no real reason to get rid of this, as it is true.  [[User:Cheezperson|Cheezperson]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|talk]]) 02:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

==Huh?==

How did Yoshi, Samus, and Ganon all get nerfed? - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 23:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Yoshi got nerfed like Kirby did in Melee, but Samus and Ganondorf are still very powerful and heavy. Come to think of it, Ganondorf's Up B is weaker, the Dark Choke doesn't really count, and he has a weaker Uaerial. Samus just has a weaker Ftilt and Neutral Air. Her other attacks are far stronger. '''Keep'''!!! <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 21:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

: I know we just voted to keep this article, but rather than exemplifying why the article was nominated for deletion in the first place, it'd be nice if you guys would read the discussion that ensued (specifically, the part about what the article should look like). You'll note that the discussion concluded that simply listing characters as "nerfed" without community (Smash community, not SmashWiki community) consensus or an explanation was bad. --[[User:Kirby King|<font color="red"><b><i>Kirby King</i></b></font>]] 22:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

== Yoshi (Second time) ==

There's an inconsistency between the [[Buffed]] and [[Nerfed]] pages, where Yoshi was '''buffed''' in a minor way from Melee to Brawl, but '''nerfed''' in a major way from Melee to Brawl.  How does this happen? [[User:Fried beef1|<font color="orange">Fried</font><font color="brown">beef</font><font color="orange">1</font>]] [[User talk:Fried beef1|<span style="color:red"><span style="font-size: 60%">Argue</span></span>]] 21:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
:Some IP moved Yoshi from minorly nerfed in Brawl to majorly nerfed. <span style="color:#4CBB17">--Posted by</span> [[User:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">Pikamander2</span>]] <small>[[User Talk:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">(Talk)</span>]]</small> at 23:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
::But still, it wouldn't make sense to have a character buffed and nerfed at the same time.  The way I see it, it should be that it evens out. [[User:Fried beef1|<font color="orange">Fried</font><font color="brown">beef</font><font color="orange">1</font>]] [[User talk:Fried beef1|<span style="color:red"><span style="font-size: 60%">Argue</span></span>]] 23:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

== Specifics ==

It's great having a page which describes what "nerfed" is, but without further explanation and specific rationale for each character / move on the list, it is a useless list, and should be removed. [[User:Zixor|Zixor]] ([[User talk:Zixor|talk]]) 22:53, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

== Yoshi (third time) ==

He's nerfed. Deal with it. Link got buffed according to the SWF Link guide author, and Ganon is still very powerful although some of his moves are somewhat useless. LOL <span style="border:2px outset #33ff66;background-color:green;-moz-border-radius:3px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#99ff99;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#99ff99">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 18:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

== Toon Link/ Young Link ==

Are they really the same characters? I mean, sure they are both clones of link, but is that enough? If you say yes, because they have the same move set, then wolf/falco/fox is the same, pichu/pikachu is the same, marth/roy is the same, and toon link/link/young link are the same.--[[User:Kill Maim|Kill Maim]] ([[User talk:Kill Maim|talk]]) 12:22, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

==Ganondorf's u-smash and u-tilt==
Now you do have a point but they should still be included as they were weakened in ''Brawl''. Fox's u-smash is often considered to be the best u-smash in ''Brawl'' but it was still weaker than it was in ''Melee''. Therefore it is included and Ganondorf's u-smash should be as well. As for his u-tilt. it did get faster (if only slightly) and the vacuum effect makes it much easier to land, but it was weakened enough to still be mentioned on this page.

As for some exact numbers, I found these %s from the center of Pokemon Stadium on Bowser in both games. It is difficult to judge a difference of power between the two games, but these differences are large enough to be notable. As for his ''Melee'' u-smash, the first kick uncharged KOs at 86% while his ''Brawl'' uncharged sweetspotted u-smash KOs at 106%. As for the u-tilt, it KOs at 22% in ''Melee'' while KOing at 50% in ''Brawl'' if sweetspotted. Also, you're wrong about Ganondorf's sourspotted u-smash being stronger than Snake's u-tilt. The former KOs Bowser at 128% while the latter KOs him at 113%. [[User:Omega Tyrant|Omega Tyrant]] [[Image: TyranitarMS.png | 25px]] 21:34, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

== Marth ==

Did he get buffed or nerfed? [[User:Avengingbandit|<font face="Soft Hits" color="#FFFF00">'''Avenging'''</font>]][[User talk:Avengingbandit|<font face="Soft Hits" color="#FFFF00">'''bandit'''</font>]] [[File:Matchup4of8.png|20px|link=Special:Contributions/Avengingbandit]] 00:34, 8 January 2012 (EST)
:It's a mix of both, as while he gained some benefits, he lost some attributes. <span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|19px|:p]] 00:37, 8 January 2012 (EST)
::In the community, I believe it's generally agreed upon that Marth neither received an overall buff nor nerf; he's roughly at the same level as he was in ''Melee''. --- <font face="American Typewriter">''[[User:ReiDemon|Rei]][[User_talk:ReiDemon|Demon]], Author Extraordinaire''</font>, 01:03, 8 January 2012 (EST)

==Captain Falcon==
His air speed was reduced? Due to his slower falling speed, it seems like his air speed was increased. [[File:KirbyHeadSSBB.png|19px]] [[User:Smash Master|Smash Master]] ([[User talk:Smash Master|talk]]) 23:05, 18 January 2012 (EST)
:Do you mean from SSB64 to Melee or from Melee to Brawl? In any case, Toomai can verify these things. [[User:Mr. Anon|<font color="grey">'''Mr. '''</font><font color="midnightblue">'''Anon'''</font>]][[File:MatchupUnknown.png|23px|link=Special:Random]][[User talk:Mr. Anon|''<span style="color: black;">talk</span>'']]  00:27, 19 January 2012 (EST)
::Just look at the [[air speed]] article. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 02:59, 19 January 2012 (EST)
:::I saw it. Correct me if I'm wrong, 1.12 is faster than 1.18. [[User:Smash Master|Smash Master]] ([[User talk:Smash Master|talk]]) 10:01, 19 January 2012 (EST) [[File:KirbyHeadSSBB.png|19px]]
::::Assuming Brawl is on the same scale as Melee (as it seems), 1.18 is a larger number than 1.12. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 10:09, 19 January 2012 (EST)
:::::I know, so should the Brawl scale for C.F. be lower than Melee's? [[User:Smash Master|Smash Master]] ([[User talk:Smash Master|talk]]) 10:23, 19 January 2012 (EST) [[File:KirbyHeadSSBB.png|19px]]
::::::Going by the straight numbers, Brawl Falcon has faster air speed than Melee's. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 10:31, 19 January 2012 (EST)
:::::::So should I revert the ''Air speed was reduced slightly'' from nerf and put ''Air speed was improved'' in buff? [[User:Smash Master|Smash Master]] ([[User talk:Smash Master|talk]]) 10:44, 19 January 2012 (EST) [[File:KirbyHeadSSBB.png|19px]]
::::::::Yes, the numbers don't lie. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 10:52, 19 January 2012 (EST)
:::::::::No they do not, and done. [[User:Smash Master|Smash Master]] ([[User talk:Smash Master|talk]]) 10:57, 19 January 2012 (EST) [[File:KirbyHeadSSBB.png|19px]]
::::::::::I guess I was wrong... <font face="Algerian">[[User:Avengingbandit|<font color="#00BFBF">'''THE'''</font>]][[User talk:Avengingbandit|<font color="#BF00BF">'''AVENGING'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Avengingbandit|<font color="#BFBF00">'''BANDIT'''</font>]]</font> 21:36, 22 January 2012 (EST)

==Fox==
Fox's air speed in ''Melee'' isn't one of the slowest, it ''is'' the slowest. [[User:Smash Master|Smash Master]] ([[User talk:Smash Master|talk]]) 10:08, 20 January 2012 (EST) [[File:KirbyHeadSSBB.png|19px]]
:No, Bowser, Sheik, Ganondorf, Kirby, Ice Climbers, and Luigi have slower air speeds. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 12:55, 20 January 2012 (EST)
::So, Luigi has the slowest air speed in ''Melee'', like in SSB64. [[User:Smash Master|Smash Master]] ([[User talk:Smash Master|talk]]) 00:17, 21 January 2012 (EST) [[File:KirbyHeadSSBB.png|19px]]
:::Yay! I was right! <font face="Algerian">[[User:Avengingbandit|<font color="#00BFBF">'''THE'''</font>]][[User talk:Avengingbandit|<font color="#BF00BF">'''AVENGING'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Avengingbandit|<font color="#BFBF00">'''BANDIT'''</font>]]</font> 21:36, 22 January 2012 (EST)

==Sheik==
All of Sheik's aerials are weakended in ''Brawl''. Does Sheik's nair, bair, and uair still has KO power and cannot reliably KO under 150%? [[User:Luigi540|Luigi540]] ([[User talk:Luigi540|talk]]) 20:19, 6 February 2012 (EST)
:They still have some KO power, nair reaches terminal percentage at 144.04%, uair reaches at 154.93%, and bair reaches at 170.58%. Nair is the only one that can be expected to KO under 150%, and even then, heavies can still take a fresh nair above 150% and reasonably survive. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 20:33, 6 February 2012 (EST)

== Jigglypuff ==

OT, Jigglypuff's jump height in Melee from the ground ''IS'' lower than SSB64, and I got proof, "''her jump was higher than Kirby's in SSB64, but in Melee, it is lower than Kirby's.''" Case closed. <span style="font-family:Corbel; font-size:12pt">[[User:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Smash''']] [[User talk:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkgreen">'''Master'''</span>]]</span></span> 18:09, 26 March 2012 (EDT)
:Its not really a notable difference. [[User:.....|.....]] [[User talk:.....|The]] [[Special:Contributions/.....|Autistic]] [[File:NintenNESsprite.png|19px]] 18:22, 26 March 2012 (EDT)
:How does that prove anything? In SSB64, each of her midair jumps have progressively decreased height, whereas in Melee, they all gain the same height. The initial jumping height isn't any lower. Learn some logic, and explain how Jigglypuff somehow has less overall jumping height, despite this.

:Also throwing out a random statement, that isn't explained, is not sourced, and saying "case closed", makes you look like an ass. If you're talking about the initial jump height in regard to Kirby and Jiggly, your statement is wrong anyway, as seen on the tables on the [[jump]] article. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:29, 26 March 2012 (EDT)
:Also, Jigglypuff's jumps are the lowest in all three games so increasing or decreasing them in Melee won't change her position. [[User:.....|.....]] [[User talk:.....|The]] [[Special:Contributions/.....|Autistic]] [[File:NintenNESsprite.png|19px]] 18:41, 26 March 2012 (EDT)
::Explain, OK, in Dream Land, in SSB64, she can jump on the lower platforms, in Melee's Dream Land she can jump on them anymore. <span style="font-family:Corbel; font-size:12pt">[[User:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Smash''']] [[User talk:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkgreen">'''Master'''</span>]]</span></span> 18:53, 26 March 2012 (EDT)
:::And the proof that stages and character models are the exact same size from N64 to Melee? <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:54, 26 March 2012 (EDT)
::::Mabye the stage is the same size, I don't know if the characters are. <span style="font-family:Corbel; font-size:12pt">[[User:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Smash''']] [[User talk:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkgreen">'''Master'''</span>]]</span></span> 19:01, 26 March 2012 (EDT)
:::::Then your measurement cannot be taken as valid. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 19:16, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

:::While I'm looking into conversion ratios, it's currently a foolish idea to try and measure character physics between those two games by using past stages. The measurement system of SSB64 is just so different than the SSBM/SSBB one. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Keymaster 19:36, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

== [[Jigglypuff (SSB)]] ==

Can someone verify that it has the slowest dash speed?--[[User:Bandit|<font style="font-family:myriad pro;font-size:13pt;color:hsl(147.75,100%,50%)">Bandit</font>]] 09:51, 28 June 2012 (EDT)
:[[Dash#SSB_Rankings|Dash rankings]], although that's consistent running speed, not sure if you're referring to initial dash. [[User:Smoreking|Smoreking]] ([[User talk:Smoreking|talk]]) 16:55, 28 June 2012 (EDT)
==Split==
'''Oppose''' This page shows nerfs for every game, which in my opinion, is better than having a page that only shows nerfs for one game. [[User:Bandit|<font style='font-family:myriad pro;font-size:13pt;color:hsl(168,100%,50%)'>Bandit</font>]] 11:12, 1 September 2012 (EDT)
'''Support''' When SSB4 comes out, this page will increase in size massively, and become quite unwieldy to read. Plus it would be better organised than one massive page listing every buff in every game. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 15:25, 1 September 2012 (EDT)

'''Support''' The page is over 24,000 bytes right now, it would radically grow. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="ff8c00">'''Toast'''</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="01a3c4">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 17:00, 1 September 2012 (EDT)
 
'''Support''' Per OT and Toast. <span style="font-family:AR JULIAN; font-size:12pt">[[User:ChuckNorris24|<span style="color:brown">Chuck</span>]][[User talk:ChuckNorris24|<span style="color:brown">Norris</span>]]</span>[[File:24.png|23px]]  17:05, 1 September 2012 (EDT)

'''Strong support''' Keep in mind that the page should just about double when SSB4 comes out, assuming all characters have at least one minor nerf (Brawl has about as many characters as Melee and SSB 64 combined). [[User:Mr. Anon|<font color="grey">'''Mr. '''</font><font color="midnightblue">'''Anon'''</font>]][[File:Anon.png|23px|link=Special:Random]][[User talk:Mr. Anon|''<span style="color: black;">talk</span>'']]  20:05, 1 September 2012 (EDT)

'''Support''' Per Omega and Anon. ''[[User:JamesHeart123|<font color="blue">James</font>]][[User talk:JamesHeart123|<font color="orange">Heart</font>]][[Special:Contributions/JamesHeart123|<font color="black">less</font>]]'' 20:25, 1 September 2012 (EDT)

'''Strong support''' I can't even amagine how big the page will be when the nerfs in SSB4 are discussed in the page, which is already big. <span style="font-family:Corbel; font-size:12pt">[[User:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Smash''']] [[User talk:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkgreen">'''Master'''</span>]]</span></span> 15:53, 14 September 2012 (EDT)

== Ultimate Section Edits ==

I have edited the Ultimate section to be more neutral in tone and less verbose generally. I'm unsure if the Cleanup section is still needed or not, but I hope this edit is in the right direction. --[[User:Pacack|Pacack]] ([[User talk:Pacack|talk]]) 15:59, October 29, 2019 (EDT)
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