Editing Talk:Mr. Game & Watch (SSB4)

:| uhh why hasnt anyone said anything? does no one care about game and watch but me? [[User:Thesupernintendokid|Thesupernintendokid]] ([[User talk:Thesupernintendokid|talk]]) 23:38, 2 October 2014 (EDT)
:Please review [[SW:TALK]], as it seems you've misunderstood the role of a talk page on a wiki. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 23:41, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

What images, in particular, are needed? [[User:Exclamation|Exclamation]] ([[User talk:Exclamation|talk]]) 08:08, 15 October 2014 (EDT)

== Missing attack information ==

Up A - Flagman - Does 2 hits of 7% damage each. The second hit is not seen often unless fighting large or low percentage opponents.

Front A - Lion - Has a weaker spot that deals 9% damage with slightly lower knockback if used at a very close range.

Down A - Manhole - Pushes and deals 1% damage to aerial opponents above the manhole but that do not touch it

Neutral air - Tropical fish - Does 4 hits: first does 5%, remaining 4%, total 17%. This is unchanged from brawl, the number of hits and total damage remains equal despite what is mentioned on the changes.

Back air - Turtle bridge - Does 4 hits: first three deal 2% damage each, last hit does 3% for a total of 9% damage. This move in fact got its damage and number of hits lowered

Pummel - Alarm - Does 3% damage

Throw - Ball - Does 4% for down throw, 8% for the others

Floor attack - Vermin - Does 7% damage. Can hit twice if positioned correctly, though rarely seen in normal gameplay. Trip attack does 5% damage instead

Edge attack - Alarm - Does 7% damage. There doesn't appear to be slower versions of this anymore.

[[User:Mr G W|Mr G W]] ([[User talk:Mr G W|talk]]) 00:38, 17 October 2014 (EDT)

== Last character to be shown by an official source ==

My trivia point was removed twice because it's not true, but here's why I'm pretty sure it is.

Although Duck Hunt and Jigglypuff were that last to be officially revealed, both of them had been '''shown''' previously. Duck Hunt appeared in a censored pic of the day, and Jigglypuff was shown multiple times during a direct and also in multiple pic of the days. Mr. Game & Watch was not shown as a playable character until his official announcement, which was '''after''' the direct that Jigglypuff was accidentally shown throughout and the censored picture of Duck Hunt.

If Duck Hunt's censored shot isn't good enough, then I'll put it as the last veteran to be shown by an official source. However, he was still shown after Jigglypuff. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]] </small> 20:08, 21 November 2014 (EST)
:Game & Watch appeared in Pac-Man's trailer at E3 2014, which is before Duck Hunt and Jigglypuff was even leaked, so your claim is false anyways. <font face="Marker Felt">[[User:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#9f4f3f;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:Reflect.jpg|20x20px]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#66CDAA;">''Reflect!''</span>]]</font> 20:12, 21 November 2014 (EST)
::That isn't showing him as a playable character. He made a random cameo, just like the other animals did in Villager's trailer. It did not make it clear that he was playable. It didn't even imply that he was playable. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]] </small> 20:16, 21 November 2014 (EST)
:::The phrase "character to be shown by an official source" does '''not''' mean that the character has to be shown as playable, he just has to be shown in some capacity, even if it's just a small cameo. In other words, based on that phrase, if you can say "yep, that's Mr. Game and Watch", which you can, that means he was shown in some capacity, playable or not. <font face="Marker Felt">[[User:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#9f4f3f;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:Reflect.jpg|20x20px]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#66CDAA;">''Reflect!''</span>]]</font> 20:19, 21 November 2014 (EST)
::::"Shown as a playable character", as it now says, does not. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]] </small> 20:21, 21 November 2014 (EST)
:::::OK, ''now'' it's true. <font face="Marker Felt">[[User:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#9f4f3f;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:Reflect.jpg|20x20px]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#66CDAA;">''Reflect!''</span>]]</font> 20:22, 21 November 2014 (EST)

== Game & Watch changes (nerf) ==

The page states that Game & Watch 'received buffs and nerfs that appear to balance each other out'. As a Game & Watch main, I can't help but disagree.

* The main issue is that, in general, Game & Watch's priority was nerfed HARD. In Brawl, you could assume that unless you were playing against Olimar, most of your attacks (particularly the F-air, F-smash, D-smash, B-air and D-air) would win or tie against most enemy attacks (obvious strong attacks aside). In SSB4, these same attacks - and of course, your other attacks - lose out to lots of other attacks and tie with most, making it much harder to hit your enemy. With G&W's now-increased ending lag on many moves, this results in being punished for performing approaches that were safe in Brawl. I have yet to find a way to approach the enemy with an attack other than B-air that doesn't leave you wide open.

* Down aerial: The reduced damage causes significantly lower priority, rendering it useless as approach against most enemies (in Brawl most characters had to dodge or shield; in SSB4, they'll just use an U-smash or similar and out-prioritize your D-air). It is indeed a better finisher now, but D-air is still one of G&W's weaker finishers.
* Down aerial: You can no longer cancel the fast fall (in Brawl, you could press down after executing your D-air to fall at normal speed).

* Down smash: It may have a bigger hitbox, but its knockback has been nerfed to hell and beyond. For a good reason, especially considering the next nerf below, but taking out G&W's best finisher is a significant nerf to the character.
* Down smash: And this is a really significant nerf: The move takes a lot longer to start up! In Brawl, it was near-instant, allowing you to instantly push away (or kill, if he's not paying attention) your enemy. Try the same thing in SSB4, and you'll be hit before the hammers can do anything. This move really deserved a nerf, but it's lost most of its previous purpose now.

* Down throw: Its higher trajectory is possibly a disadvantage; down throw to D-smash was amazing in Brawl, but I'm not sure if it would be possible in SSB4 due to D-smash being slower.
* Down throw: Unlike stated, low-damage down-throw DOES guarantee follow ups as you can U-tilt from the down-throw without any possibility of escape if the enemy is low enough. It may also be possible with the N-air from what I've read, though I haven't been able to do it consistently yet.

* Dash attack: Again, less damage = lower priority. It used to tie against almost any attack it doesn't beat, but now it's an easy way to get yourself launched against many opponents.

* Forward smash: I'm repeating myself, but again, the lower priority kills this move. Also, it MAY be slower, but then again it may just be me being mistaken due to the move being entirely different now in practice.

* Judge: The new number rules are a DISADVANTAGE, not an advantage. In the old Judge, there was a 1-in-7 chance of getting a 9, but you have to reset it (by using it twice) after a 9. In SSB4, it's just a 1-in-9 chance.

* Roll: I'm not sure if the roll became slower or the other characters became faster, but my rolls often get punished now while they were safe in Brawl. I'm currently experimenting with different forms of defense that require less rolling because you simply can't roll away without being punished anymore.

* Air dodge: Not sure, but I feel like the air dodge is shorter now.

* F-tilt: I feel like this one got a buff; it seems to have higher knockback and potentially higher priority (so more damage). Or maybe I just didn't use F-tilt enough in Brawl.

In my opinion, other than the Oil Panic buff (it really is a lot better now) and the jab finisher (which makes the jab tons better), Game & Watch got nerfed hard. [[User:VDZ|VDZ]] ([[User talk:VDZ|talk]]) 20:48, 1 December 2014 (EST)

== Some changes I have noticed while playing as G&W ==

I would like to report a few changes that I've taken note of when playing as Mr. G&W in SSB4. These are mostly damage nerfs/small things but I will report them here anyway.

-Forward Aerial deals less damage and knockback than it did before (16% ---> 11%)
-Forward Smash, Down Smash, and Up-Smash all do less knockback/take longer to KO Opponents
+Up-Tilt has two separate hitboxes, allowing the hits to connect to total into 14%
-Back-Aerial has one less hit than it did before
-Down-Smash has more ending lag
+The Grab-Release Glitch from Brawl no longer works on G&W
-Down Aerial can no longer be fastfalled, removing one of G&W's approach options.
-Up-Smash has reduced ranged
=Forward-Smash now has two distinct hitboxes; one for the torch, the other for the stick


If anyone with access to modifying this page could add these under the 'Changes from Brawl' section, it would be much appreciated. I have verified these changes by comparing data and testing between the two games (SSBB and SSB3DS).

Thank you,

-1337President [[User:1337President|1337President]] ([[User talk:1337President|talk]]) 18:35, 7 December 2014 (EST)


:For better readability, here's the same list using wiki bullet points. (Would edit the list itself but it's generally 'not done' to edit people's messages on talk pages.)
:* - Forward Aerial deals less damage and knockback than it did before (16% ---> 11%)
:* - Forward Smash, Down Smash, and Up-Smash all do less knockback/take longer to KO Opponents
:* + Up-Tilt has two separate hitboxes, allowing the hits to connect to total into 14%
:* - Back-Aerial has one less hit than it did before
:* - Down-Smash has more ending lag
:* + The Grab-Release Glitch from Brawl no longer works on G&W
:* - Down Aerial can no longer be fastfalled, removing one of G&W's approach options.
:* - Up-Smash has reduced ranged
:* = Forward-Smash now has two distinct hitboxes; one for the torch, the other for the stick
:[[User:VDZ|VDZ]] ([[User talk:VDZ|talk]]) 00:27, 8 December 2014 (EST)

== Error - Octopus? ==

"Same as up throw, but weaker with a slightly more diagonal trajectory. Ideal for combos and setups, can be comboed into Flagman (on floaty characters) or Greenhouse (on fast-fallers) at low percents, Judge, '''Octopus''' or Oil Panic from low to high ones, Tropical Fish and Spitball Sparky from mid to high ones and Fire at high ones. Guaranteed follow-ups stop at about 130%, though Spitball Sparky can KO at high percentages if the opponent's reaction is read. Originates from Ball."<br />
I assume that should be his up-smash, rather than his final smash.<br />
[[Special:Contributions/38.110.64.163|38.110.64.163]] 05:04, 5 December 2015 (EST)
:Fixed. It's a wiki, feel free to edit. [[file:INoMedssig.png|20px]] <font face="cursive">[[User:INoMed|<font color="red">'''INoMed'''</font>]] <sup>'''''[[User talk:INoMed|<font color="red">(Talk • </font>]] [[User:INoMed/Contribs|<font color="red">Contribs)</font>]]'''''</sup></font> 05:17, 5 December 2015 (EST)
::It's not an eiki, it's a wiki. Excuse my typos. [[file:INoMedssig.png|20px]] <font face="cursive">[[User:INoMed|<font color="red">'''INoMed'''</font>]] <sup>'''''[[User talk:INoMed|<font color="red">(Talk • </font>]] [[User:INoMed/Contribs|<font color="red">Contribs)</font>]]'''''</sup></font> 05:18, 5 December 2015 (EST)

== About the Update Patch changes ==

Some of the changes on the update changes list are incorrect.

"Forward tilt's base knockback increased: 20 → 30." The move has always has 35 base knockback. I'm not sure where the misconception that it ever had less came from.

"Judge #6 does damage in more situations." Opening up G&W's 1.0.0 files, 1.0.4 files, and 1.1.5 files shows no differences in Judge 6 between the two, meaning it has not been changed at all.

"Properties of Octopus have been adjusted." *Insert what I said about the supposed Judge 6 change here.*

== Adding some notable players ==

Aight, so since there's been a constant struggle from some players to add notable G&W mains who keep getting rejected, I'd like to make their cases here before trying to add them. 

SeanS: a TO in Long Island who actually has a page on SSBWiki here: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Sean_S 

As the page states, he has some pretty good wins and results. If he's notable enough to have his own wiki page, surely he should also qualify to be a notable sm4sh G&W. 

Vader: A PR'd G&W in the Coachella Valley region of California, formerly PR'd in the Inland Empire region as well before he was removed for inactivity. Has recently taken sets off some PR'd SoCal players, including Scizor (as seen here: http://challonge.com/BattleOnBennett3Singles ). <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:108.131.51.61|108.131.51.61]] ([[User talk:108.131.51.61|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/108.131.51.61|contribs]]) 09:45, May 30, 2016</small>

:Its not only results what we need, but also if they are known outside of their region. Sean S' only results are at KTARs, and he isn't known out of New Yersey. Meanwhile, we already have a notice on the notable players section that warns the user not to add Vader, also the SoCal PR is what we care about, not the Inland Empire PR. KOSSisMOSS, a recent player, was added on the other hand because he is known out of these factors: he placed 65th at [[GENESIS 3]] (a major tournament), the same placement {{Sm|Regi}} got in said tournament, and is right now power ranked at NorCal. Due to these factors, please keep refraining from adding either Sean S or Vader to the Notable players section. Thanks and have a good day. --[[File:BeepYouSignature.png|50px]] [[User:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''BeepYou'''</font>]], '''a user with no grammar at all :v''' [[User talk:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''(talk)'''</font>]] 13:42, 30 May 2016 (EDT)

:Hm :/

If I may ask, then, what exactly makes GimR a notable G&W main? Not hating on him or anything as he's certainly put in a bunch of effort towards furthering the smash scene as a whole, but his G&W isn't exactly notable skill-wise. There are even other G&Ws in his own region who consistently outplace him in their regular tourneys, taking bigger names, etc. I get that he's a widely renowned streamer, but that doesn't really mean he's a widely renowned G&W.

And if he's solely up there because his streams are so popular, then isn't that rather biased towards regions that get more and better stream coverage than others? <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:108.131.51.61|108.131.51.61]] ([[User talk:108.131.51.61|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/108.131.51.61|contribs]]) 19:24, May 30, 2016</small>

:::The reason why GimR is one of the most notable G&W mains is because of several valid factors:
::::1. He is one of the first G&W mains, alongside Regi and Songn.
::::2. He has a respectable quantity of notable results for a mid-tier character:
:::::*17th at Paragon Orlando 2015, '''a major'''
:::::*7th at Smash @ Xanadu, '''a super regional'''
:::::*33rd at Super Smash Con, '''a super major'''
:::::*13th at PAX Prime 2015, '''a major'''
:::::*17th at Smash the Record, '''a charity tournament'''
::::3. He regularly enters Smash @ Xanadu despite having to stream the game.
::::4. When combining both the minor and major results, people generally agree he is possibly the best G&W main in the United States.
:::Is that enough? Also, would you sign your comments please? I'm telling you that to avoid a block. --[[File:BeepYouSignature.png|50px]] [[User:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''BeepYou'''</font>]], '''a user with no grammar at all :v''' [[User talk:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''(talk)'''</font>]] 01:36, 31 May 2016 (EDT)

:::::Apologies about the comment signing. I'm on mobile, so I'm not entirely sure as to how to do that, but the bit up top says to use 4 tildes so I'll try that.
:::::Regarding your points, I do still have an issue with a few of the reasons. 
::::::1. What exactly do you mean by "one of the first G&W mains?" If you mean "one of the first to get results with the character," that seems like a fairly arbitrary distinction.
::::::2. The last 3 results you listed are fine, but the first 2 seem rather improper for use in determining notability. Paragon Orlando was in January 2015, only a month or so after the game was released on Wii U, and Xanadu is a weekly, not a super regional. Granted, it's a pretty large weekly, but bigger numbers of people attending doesn't inherently equal more talent. 
::::::3. What's the significance of this point in relation to his being a notable G&W main? I've already agreed that he's absolutely working incredibly hard for the community, but that effort doesn't inherently translate to being notable. 
::::::4. That entirely depends on what group of people you ask, though. And to that end, both the G&W Skype and Discord communities (both the official groups stemming from smashboards) agree that GimR isn't the best G&W in the US; the names they generally put up for that distinction are SeanS, Kossismoss, Paper, and Vanity. G&W isn't a popular character in the meta and many of his stronger players don't tend to get much recognition due to a variety of factors,  so it'd make sense that people wouldn't know about G&W  players other than one of the most prominent streamers in the scene (who also happens to play G&W).
:::::I do admit that the latter 3 results you listed should be enough to keep him in, but I also feel that restricting the "notable mains" section through public perception somewhat hurts his representation as a whole. Like, for example, there's a really good G&W in Alabama by the tag ChillyChili (currently PR'd 6th in the state despite only having begun being active within a few months or so), but I wouldn't know if he'd get the ok for the list since he's not particularly well known outside of Alabama yet, which seems unfair considering that he's displayed his skill. He's decently well known within the most prominent G&W discussion groups, but that's it. 
:::::And at the very least, Vader/SeanS seem to be notable enough that the people adding him  are coming from a multitude of IPs, not just from one spamming them over and over. --
[[Special:Contributions/108.131.51.61|108.131.51.61]] 03:27, 31 May 2016 (EDT)Tibbyflapps, a G&W main with a heart

== Names of non special attacks ==

Considering the names of his special attacks are the name of the game it originated from, should the same be said for the rest of his attacks? Like Flagman for up tilt. We have something similar for Mega Man and Wii Fit Trainer.[[Special:Contributions/98.116.184.165|98.116.184.165]] 17:51, 9 October 2018 (EDT)
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	== Names of non special attacks ==		== Names of non special attacks ==

	Considering the names of his special attacks are the name of the game it originated from, should the same be said for the rest of his attacks? Like Flagman for up tilt. We have something similar for Mega Man and Wii Fit Trainer.[[Special:Contributions/98.116.184.165\|98.116.184.165]] 12:26, ~~11 September~~ 2018 (EDT)		Considering the names of his special attacks are the name of the game it originated from, should the same be said for the rest of his attacks? Like Flagman for up tilt. We have something similar for Mega Man and Wii Fit Trainer.[[Special:Contributions/98.116.184.165\|98.116.184.165]] 17:51, 9 October 2018 (EDT)
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