Editing Talk:Kirby (SSBU)

== Inkling colour ==

''"The "Everyone is Here!" trailer features a Kirby using the Splattershot with blue ink instead of orange."''<br>
But doesn't each player need to have their own ink colour? So if Kirby copies an Inkling, he needs to change colour to the first free one, so his colour don't clash with any other player's colour? So in the trailer, there's probably already an orange Inkling, but not a blue one, so he uses blue as the first free colour. This will be tested thoroughly after the release of the game. But I'm calling it here.<br>
[[User:Liggliluff|Liggliluff]] ([[User talk:Liggliluff|talk]]) 13:15, 15 August 2018 (EDT)
:Not necessarily. Kirby only copies [[Splattershot]] which can only Ink opponents, nothing else. Seeing as the color of the ink on an opponent doesn’t change annything, they’ll just always take more damage when inked. The only way this would really become necessary is if Kirby copied [[Splat Roller]]. [[Special:Contributions/72.133.91.93|72.133.91.93]] 08:38, 24 September 2018 (EDT) Blueflame105

== Was Kirby Buff/Nerfed overall in the transition? ==
I've noticed that Kirby is one of a few fighters that don't have an analysis summary on their page. Is this still being worked on?--[[User:BriefCasey795|BriefCasey795]] ([[User talk:BriefCasey795|talk]]) 14:11, 26 December 2018 (EST)
:I've been trying to explain some of the buffs/nerfs myself, but since I don't actually have the game yet I can't really contribute too much to it. Tf you want to help It'll be wonderful. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 14:15, 26 December 2018 (EST)

== Movesets ==
How could I help with adding that moveset chart with all of the damage data? Surely it can't be as simple as copy and pasting the template and adding the information, right? [[User:Luigi86101|Luigi86101]] ([[User talk:Luigi86101|talk]]) 21:54, 1 January 2019 (EST)

== Kirby analyzed? ==

Exactly where was it said in the game that Galeem analyzed Kirby from a distance and thus copied him? [[Special:Contributions/97.88.58.90|97.88.58.90]] 12:35, 8 March 2019 (EST)


== Why do you flame me?==
Not just on Kirby's page, but DracoRexKing was accusing me of exaggeration everywhere and kept deleting the improvements i put. I only try improving description and i never put something to exaggerate anything, while he exaggerating. Please take everything with a grain of salt and don't exaggerate what i put. Also, stop insulting me. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:95.239.29.53|95.239.29.53]] ([[User talk:95.239.29.53|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/95.239.29.53|contribs]]) 10:50, 2019 October 17</small>

:The root of the whole problem is you refuse to listen to any criticism we give you. We keep telling you what's wrong with your edits, yet you insist on adding them back without acknowledging it. I messaged you twice about this and there was no response from you either. Regarding your current edits, you are fixated on overselling Kirby's positive traits, even though they are by far offset by the negative ones (why do you think he's almost universally considered a low or even bottom tier?). We don't need all his buffs to be given a special mention in his attributes section, or to describe universal changes like they give him a better standing compared to the rest of the cast; for example, Hammer's super armor when fully charged is an insignificant buff that will virtually never be relevant in any competitive match, and the universal nerfs to projectiles on shield benefitting him more than everyone else is straight up false (even if it helps him with getting camped, so it does for everyone else). By contrast, there where times when people added negative traits about him, and even if they were true, you took them down and complained in your edit summaries with comments like "Kirby is good now, how many times do I have to tell you?".
:In general, your behavior in this wiki has become very disruptive, because people have to keep taking down incorrect or poorly written information you continuously add to these pages, especially me because I edit them pretty often (or used to before taking a break), and that's what eventually leads to these pages being protected. Please do take this opportunity to listen to others and work on your edits. Also, if you really think what I've been telling you is disrespectful, grow thicker skin, because [[SW:NPA|no personal attack was made]]. If you persist with this behavior after the protection expires, it's you that will get blocked from editing. [[File:034.png|20px]] '''<span style="font-family:Algerian">[[User:DracoRexKing|<font color="red">DracoRex,]]</font> [[User talk:DracoRexKing|<font color="olive">Creator of the Land]]</font></span>''' 15:39, October 17, 2019 (EDT)

:I should probably add that [[SW:BTALK|you don't have the rights to talk about who should be blocked and who shouldn't]]. Furthermore, if you want evidence on how erroneous your edits are, [https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/dalm4p/kirby_aerial_frame_data/ we have been ridiculed for making Ultimate Kirby look better than he should be]. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 16:17, October 17, 2019 (EDT)

:I should also add that [[SW:1RV|we have rules against reverting another user's revert]]. So in other words you adding back the information about Kirby that was removed was against the policies. <span style="font-family:Algerian;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #2091ff">'''[[User:supatoad64|<span style="color:blue;">SupαToαd64,</span>]] [[User talk:supatoad64|<span style="color:lime;">the Best</span>]]'''</span> [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 02:11, October 18, 2019 (EDT)

== I'm sorry ==
Did i do this? I'm sorry, but i was not putting riediting exactly the same words, and neither exaggerating something. I know that Kirby has flaws, but his problems, outside of the startup in his aerials, are deeper, since they laid in his poor approach and lack of air mobility, because while Kirby has good strengths, his weaknesses that are so big that prevent him to take advantage of them as well as the other characters. The changes Kirby received in Ultimate improved his KO potential, as forward tilt and dash attack have gained KO power at high percents, while his smash attacks and neutral aerial are stronger as well. Remember Kirby's up smash in SSB4? Previously, the clean hit only lasted for one frame, the mid hit for two frames and the late hit for three frames, and now, with patch 3.0.0, the clean and late hit's durations were reversed, so it is more consistent as a KO option and better as an anti-air. Please try to understand what i meant to write.
I totally understand if you don't agree with me, but i just want you to understand. If i write that his KO potential has improved, at least don't delete that, the changes section proves it. I also know that maybe i'm not the best, but i at least try, i've been doing this for a few months, and if what i did was wrong i'm sorry, i just wanted to help, and i promise that next time i will be more careful of what i edit and i won't be favoritist, OK?. Will you forgive me? <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:82.53.47.105|82.53.47.105]] ([[User talk:82.53.47.105|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/82.53.47.105|contribs]]) 13:21, 2019 October 18</small>

:This is a bit too late, but you need to understand that we aren't reverting your edits because we're deleting how his KO potential has improved, it's because you are making it look better than it should be. The same goes for Zelda, she's better, but that doesn't mean you can overlook her weaknesses. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:27, October 28, 2019 (EDT)

I understand what you mean, but Kirby's KO potential was improved. Besides, his worst flaw, in my opinion, is his lack of air mobility. While he has a good combo game, a high air acceleration, a useful moveset and a solid edgeguarding game, all his aerials except for back aerial come out on frame 10 (neutral, forward and up aerials) or later (frame 18 down aerial) and he lacks the air speed to take advantage of it, giving him a poor approach because of that, you know? If i should fix this, i would increase Kirby's air speed to be around Pikachu's air speed, his neutral and up aerial will come out on frame 7, while forward aerial will come out on frame 8 and it will autocancel 5 frames earlier at frame 36 instead of 41, allowing it to autocancel in a short hop like in ''Brawl'', regaining its utility as an approach option and making it better to use to perform a Wall of Pain. Do you understand what i'm trying to say and do you think that the ideas i gave could make Kirby at least not among the worst characters? <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:82.48.174.206|82.48.174.206]] ([[User talk:82.48.174.206|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/82.48.174.206|contribs]]) 13:08, 2019 November 2</small>

:I personally think that they would, but that's just me. '''Your Senpai,''' [[User:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: red;">'''Iron'''</span>]] [[User talk:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: cyan;">'''Warrior'''</span>]] 17:21, November 2, 2019 (EDT)

Yeah, i think they should. Faster aerials, forward air regaining its ability to autocancel in a short hop and a higher air speed are big beneficts for Kirby, and they could also improve his disadvantage state and approach. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:82.48.174.206|82.48.174.206]] ([[User talk:82.48.174.206|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/82.48.174.206|contribs]]) 03:07, 2019 November 3</small>

:Yeah, I really wish that forward air would link properly as well. '''Your Senpai,''' [[User:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: red;">'''Iron'''</span>]] [[User talk:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: cyan;">'''Warrior'''</span>]] 17:19, November 4, 2019 (EST)

Are you sure it doesn't properly connect? The first hit launches higher, has less knockback, both hitlag and SDI are reduced and all hits have more range, since the hitboxes are bigger or more extended. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:82.48.163.59|82.48.163.59]] ([[User talk:82.48.163.59|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/82.48.163.59|contribs]]) 07:14, 2019 November 6</small>

:A lot of the time the hits won't connect right if you don't do it perfectly. '''Your Senpai,''' [[User:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: red;">'''Iron'''</span>]] [[User talk:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: cyan;">'''Warrior'''</span>]] 17:23, November 7, 2019 (EST)

This is a misuse of talk pages. Please see [[SW:TALK]]. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 18:34, November 7, 2019 (EST)

== Where are the hitboxes? ==
In Kirby's page there are not hitbox visualizations, you should put them. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:82.48.174.206|82.48.174.206]] ([[User talk:82.48.174.206|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/82.48.174.206|contribs]]) 12:57, 2019 November 2</small>

==Please stop exaggerating ==
I don't want to be rude, but you can't remove the informations i pointed out, and i'm not sugarcoating anything.  Forward tilt, dash attack, neutral aerial and up aerials didn't had any KO potential at all in SSB4, and the latter two now have less startup lag as well. When patch 6.0.0 came out I saw a video that better described Kirby's changes, and said that due to the faster startup of neutral and forward aerial, they can combo from forward throw even if Kirby lands on platforms at low to mid percentages, although it still requires good timing, and that his neutral aerial now KO's at the same percentages of his back aerial. I even looked at Kirby and Samus's neutral aerials's damage and knockback values and angles, and their power is pretty much the same, since while Kirby's has more knockback, Samus's is a semispike, and her neutral aerial is one of the strongest. And up smash's clean hit only lasted one frame in SSB4, with the mid hit lasting two, and three for the late hit, but in ''Ultimate'', the clean hit is now active for three frames and the late hit only comes out on the last frame, so not only is a better anti-air, but is also more consistent as well. Since the attacks i mentioned have gained KO potential, Kirby's KO power has improved, so you can't just remove that. And while his KO moves can be hard to land sometimes, that doesn't mean Kirby lacks setups. Since you wrote that Kirby's down tilt and forward aerial can set-up, and then in the attributes section you write that he has no set-ups, then you are contradicting yourselves. I repeat, i'm not sugarcoating anything, but i think you need learn more about Kirby. I'm even an anonymous who doesn't have the game, but analyzing the changes and what i see in videos gives me my proofs. Personally, i think Kirby is underrated, but again, i'm not exaggerating anything, and i think that you are the ones exaggerating. Please understand and don't make me repeat myself again. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:95.239.29.162|95.239.29.162]] ([[User talk:95.239.29.162|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/95.239.29.162|contribs]]) 14:38, 2019 November 16</small>

:Have you ever wondered why your edits are being reverted every single time? It's because you are sugarcoating them. You're making Kirby better than he should be, and once again we have been ridiculed on Reddit for such edits. Second, you're adding back the same information over and over again, and that can be considered edit warring. Finally, I find it ironic that you're the one who's complaining about repeating one's words while me and other users have told you many times why you're edits are incorrect. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 17:42, November 16, 2019 (EST)

What i meant to say is that Kirby's KO potential was improved, so you should at least keep that. And try to compare Kirby and Samus's neutral aerials: their power is pretty much the same now. I mentioned the video about Kirby's changes in patch 6.0.0 because it explains them better. I leave the link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XpBdzWLS1Y <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:95.239.29.162|95.239.29.162]] ([[User talk:95.239.29.162|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/95.239.29.162|contribs]]) 14:44, 2019 November 16</small>

:As I said, if it's a 6.0.0. change, then talk about it in the "Update history" section, not the "Changes from Smash 4" section (which for the most part has most of the buffs already). [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 17:49, November 16, 2019 (EST)
::If I may interject, some of what the IP is saying is true. Many of the moves he has mentioned are noticeably better now than they were before, and as of 6.0.0, many no longer consider Kirby to be a bottom-tier. His wording may be more optimistic than it should be but that is an easy fix, and calling them incorrect is an oversimplification. Also I don't particularly see the relevance of what some random people on Reddit are saying to this discussion.

::IP, please try to keep in mind that the general consensus is that Kirby is a fairly lacklustre fighter in Ultimate, and it is our job to make sure the information we have on him reflects this. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 17:51, November 16, 2019 (EST)
:::For the Reddit point, users were talking about how we made Kirby better than he was (among some other complaints), which shows that there was too much exaggerations on this page. 
:::And I reiterate: the buffs to Kirby from patches should be placed in their respective section, not the "Changes from ''Smash 4''" section. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 17:56, November 16, 2019 (EST)
::::This isn't really how we have done it in the past, and for good reason. If a character was significantly changed in patches then it is worth mentioning how they initially faired on transition, but beyond this we should describe the changes between the most up-to-date versions of the 2 games, as these are the only versions which are relevant to the meta. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 17:59, November 16, 2019 (EST)
:::::Are you talking about the "Attributes" section or "Changes from ''Smash 4''" section? from what I have read, the changes are added to the "Attributes" section. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 18:02, November 16, 2019 (EST)
::::::The changes from section. This is concordant with how we did those sections for SSB4's character pages. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 18:06, November 16, 2019 (EST)

Just to make my self clear, i noticed some inconsistencies about Kirby's setups from down tilt and forward aerial. In the ''Attributes section'' they wrote that they could setup in some of his KO moves, such as forward air into forward of up smash, but later on, the wrote that he had no setups from his KO option, and this is a big contradiction, and about his increased KO power, he has four new finishers in his forward tilt, dash attack, neutral aerial and up aerial, but they belittled all of this, including the lower startup for the latter two. I mean, according to the video, Kirby's neutral aerial now can KO at around the same percentages of his back aerial. Don't you think it's odd that they belittled this things? A better KO power should not be ignored like this. I put the link to the video above in the talk section because i think it will be important, and i recommended to put it in Kirby's page as well. Also, due to  the 6.0.0 patch, the ''Moveset'' section must be altered. I did some modifications, but were removed. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:79.19.0.68|79.19.0.68]] ([[User talk:79.19.0.68|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/79.19.0.68|contribs]]) 15:23, 2019 November 16</small>

==Sugarcoating==
It occurs to me that you mat not know what you are doing to sugarcoat. Let me go over some notable ones:
#"greatly" vs "noticably" buffed. Two differences here: greatly implies that Kirby was buffed so much he's now high/top tier, which is not the case. Noticably is more moderate, showing that people took note of Kirby's buffs but it wasn't enough to lift his perception.
#"its very" vs "its surprisingly" high knockback. Kirby's neutral air doesn't have very high knockback, unless you consider KOing at 130%-150% to be high (which it isn't). Surprisingly fits better since no one really expects the move to be a useful KO tool.
#"his players had better performances as a result." No, Kirby's representation has always been below average. Jesuichoq and Komota has always placed decently in touraments, and none of their results are suddenly improving because of Kirby's buffs. Plus, many other Kirby players are still struggling with the character and either dropping him entirely or relegating him to a secondary (eg. SGK and Captain L).
Again, word choice is very important when editing pages, because you don't want to accidentally make someone look better than they should be. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 07:20, November 19, 2019 (EST)
:Did you just miss the tilde key? <span style="font-family: SimHei;color: orange;background-color: green;">LegendEH Is Very Handsome~</span> 11:20, November 19, 2019 (EST)

Maybe i made something sound too good but let me explain:

1. What i meant is that Kirby's neutral aerial is one of the strongest of its type. Try comparing that to Samus's neutral aerial, they KO at similiar percentages, as while Kirby's has more knockback, Samus's launches lower.  Kirby's neutral aerial can KO at 150% from the center of final destination, according to the informations that were put in updates, and a KO at 150% from the center equivals at around 120%-130% from the ledge. It's not that hard to understand, as almost every neutral aerial in the game have no KO potential at all.

2. You can't remove the changes to frame data i put in the ''Moveset'' section. They are official, and besides, up aerial had decent knockback. Near the upper blast line at high percents, it can KO. When they decided to make the page protected for three months, i put the information on up aerial's new startup lag, which is at frame 8, tied with neutral aerial for the second fastest startup of Kirby's aerials. I sometimes think  the community ignored Kirby, and you can't belittle the utility of Kirby's buffs, since not only they improve his frame data and KO potential, but also makes his aerials safer to use in disadvantage.

3. I cannot even describe the changes to startup lag and knockback in the ''Moveset'' section without everyone undoing everything. Even if i did a mistake, they shouldn't undo the entirety of my edit, just correct the wrong part, and that's about it. Please try to understand what i mean, because i can't keep repeating myself. I put things like frame data info to make them known, or even if they autocancel in a short hop or if with good spacing, they are safe on shield, such as in the Zelda page. [[Special:Contributions/79.17.40.85|79.17.40.85]] 11:30, November 21, 2019 (EST)

:I always forget to remind people, remember to sign your comments with four tildes (~). '''Your Senpai,''' [[User:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: red;">'''Iron'''</span>]] [[User talk:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: cyan;">'''Warrior'''</span>]] 16:54, November 20, 2019 (EST)

Do you understand what i said weeks ago? [[Special:Contributions/82.55.50.131|82.55.50.131]] 12:32, December 16, 2019 (EST)
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