Editing Talk:Joker (SSBU)

We've already got Robin, and we just got Joker....why do I feel like we're missing someone?[[Special:Contributions/152.26.211.26|152.26.211.26]] 04:22, 31 December 2018 (EST)
:What? Batman? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 00:09, 1 January 2019 (EST)
::[[SW:TALK|This is not proper use of talk pages.]] Please refrain from these types of edits. '''[[User:JamesHeart123|<font color="blue">James</font>]]'''[[File:JH-Heartless.png|15px|link=Special:Contributions/JamesHeart123]]'''[[User talk:JamesHeart123|<font color="orange">Heart</font>]]''' 00:59, 1 January 2019 (EST)

== Moveset ==

Where did they reveal he can wall jump and has a neutral rapid jab? [[Special:Contributions/99.203.128.19|99.203.128.19]] 14:50, 5 January 2019 (EST) (preceding comment was by a signed out [[User:aykrivwassup|aykrivwassup]])
:It was datamined, apparently. The Twitter link showing the datamined content was mentioned in the edit summaries but wasn't added to the article. '''[[User:JamesHeart123|<font color="blue">James</font>]]'''[[File:JH-Heartless.png|15px|link=Special:Contributions/JamesHeart123]]'''[[User talk:JamesHeart123|<font color="orange">Heart</font>]]''' 00:10, 6 January 2019 (EST)

He is supposed to be faster than sonic. That is what I read from somewhere. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:92.6.178.29|92.6.178.29]] ([[User talk:92.6.178.29|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/92.6.178.29|contribs]]) 16:46, 5 February 2019 (EST)</small>

== Joker's Leaked Parameters ==

Is it really okay to put that stuff in the article?

For one thing, it's leaked content. Before the game's release, it was explicitly forbidden to add information from the leaked game or add framedata from pre-release demos, and I don't see how this is any different. Joker is under development and his framedata is subject to change.

What I believe is more damning for maintaining SmashWiki integrity is the fact that the data is not directly identified as "Joker", it's identified as "Jack". Now, "Jack" is obviously Joker (he's after "Packun" (Piranha Plant) and before "Brave"), but we don't know that for certain because it hasn't been officially confirmed. For all we know it could be Jack from MadWorld, or Raiden from Metal Gear Solid 2. Even if we're sure that it's Joker, we don't know how sure we can be and it's not the job of a wiki to take that chance.

With all this in mind, I'm probably going to make an account and start reverting the changes on various articles that refer to Joker's stats, replacing "Joker" with "Jack" and putting a footnote explaining the leak and the fact that "Jack" is generally believed to be Joker.

I'll wait a few days to do this, if nobody has any objections. [[Special:Contributions/132.170.60.245|132.170.60.245]] 23:20, 9 February 2019 (EST)
:Leaked content in the form of textual information and screenshots ''was'' allowed to be added on the wiki. You may have confused this with the prohibition of hosting extracted files, like artwork or music, until the game's official release.
:The guidelines over specific values were in effect to twart speculation from pre-release footage, such as the demo at E3, and doesn't apply to games already released and datamined, as far as I'm aware, despite being subject to change.
:A brief mention of Joker's believed stats being under the "Jack" name could be added, if only to avoid any confusion over the names found in the datamine itself. [[File:NokiiSig.png|link=User_talk:Nokii]] '''[[User:Nokii|{{color|#89d|Nokii}}]]''' —  00:28, 10 February 2019 (EST)

::What I meant as a problem with including leaked parameters is that it's being used as though it's a set-in-stone fact that Joker's [[dash|dashing speed]] will be so-and-so and his [[weight]] will be this-and-that, with editors even going as far as to put this information in the charts in those articles even though we don't know FOR SURE that it's even the character we think it is. To be clear, I have no problem with datamining (that [[Dash]] article could do with some datamined info, actually). I just have an issue with when datamining is used as a vector for speculation about unreleased, unknown content.

::What it comes down to is that even though Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is released, the character Joker is not. Therefore, datamined parameters of him (even from a released video game) technically constitutes a leak of in-game content. And I definitely remember a sitewide banner that prohibited adding information that could only be obtained from the leaked version of the game like World of Light and specific numeric character parameters. This is different from leaked text and screenshots (like Ken) which are mostly relegated to the [[leak]] and [[List of rumors|rumor]] articles anyway. Even with this leaked data, it's been removed as of 2.0.0 so for all we know it could already be outdated. Therefore, putting the data in the Joker article in this way -- in a section titled "Moveset", as if the stats will be this way upon release -- is speculation.

::If Joker's stats are to be included in SmashWiki, I think the most responsible, informative way that would cause the least confusion would be to add a line to Joker's Trivia section that
::*mentions the leak,
::*mentions that Joker's believed stats are listed under a codename ("Jack"),
::*footnote links to the Twitter thread and the corresponding section in [[List of rumors]], and
::*stipulates that the data is subject to change as it belongs to an unreleased character.
::The Twitter thread is more comprehensive and organized anyway. It's also worth bringing up that 2.0.0 removed the leaked data, including Jack's stats. [[Special:Contributions/132.170.62.236|132.170.62.236]] 23:04, 11 February 2019 (EST)

== Joker's Dash Speed ==

If his dash speed has been updated in a recent patch, can some change the source referenced to one that shows the new speed? '''[[User:JamesHeart123|<font color="blue">James</font>]]'''[[File:JH-Heartless.png|15px|link=Special:Contributions/JamesHeart123]]'''[[User talk:JamesHeart123|<font color="orange">Heart</font>]]''' 01:01, 16 February 2019 (EST)
:Though the Jack files were removed in 2.0.0, I feel a change in speed would be worth documenting. [[User:CardboardLuigi|CardboardLuigi]] ([[User talk:CardboardLuigi|talk]]) 12:23, 16 February 2019 (EST)

== Joker's datamined values ==

Because I [[User talk:Aidanzapunk#This edit|apparently came off as a dick with my revert]], allow me to make a case for why the datamined values should stay off the page: ''they're bound to change''. The user who removed it is absolutely right; Piranha Plant is full proof that data values can be mined out and revealed to the public (despite how many people don't want to see it and actually be surprised by something), but still change in the end. Where's the third jump? Where's the slow dash speed? Both of those were changed before the character came out. Furthermore, it's not exclusive to ''Ultimate''; remember when Ryu and Dream Land were datamined? Ryu had [[:File:SSB3DS 1.0.6 Ryu Victory Theme.ogg|the OG SFII victory theme]], and Dream Land had {{SSB4MusicLink|Kirby|Forest Stage|an entirely different alternate track}}, and both got changed in the end. Datamined information before it's released is the same as beta elements in a video game. Putting anything that specific on a page like this (and also putting it under the implication that it's fact) is [[SW:SPEC|speculation]] outright. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''the Irish Rurouni'''</span>]] 17:00, 3 March 2019 (EST)
:Before SSBU came out, we disallowed images and technical information that were only obtainable via datamined leaks. This should be no different. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Irrepressible 17:53, 3 March 2019 (EST)
::I agree. I had stated my concerns about this before ''Ultimate'' came out, so I don't see a reason as to why this should be enforced here, too. [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 18:02, 3 March 2019 (EST)
:::Yeah, we don't want to spoilers Joker's informations. --[[User:Dharakjoo|Dharakjoo]] ([[User talk:Dharakjoo|talk]]) 21:13, March 23, 2019 (EDT)

== Um... ==

"Joker is also the only character in both Smash 4 and Ultimate to be revealed at/in a non-Nintendo event/video." Why is Smash 4 listed here when he's not in Smash 4? [[Special:Contributions/192.208.160.250|192.208.160.250]] 20:01, 5 March 2019 (EST)
:The meaning of the trivia is that Joker, out of all characters from ''Smash 4'' and ''Ultimate'', is the only one to be revealed at/in a non-Nintendo event. I'll try clarifying it. [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 20:05, 5 March 2019 (EST)
::Smash 4 is listed because Smash 4 and Ultimate are the only games where Nintendo had full on reveals. Brawl was in the early days of the internet, so there wasn't really much for them to do. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''the Irish Rurouni'''</span>]] 12:06, 7 March 2019 (EST)

"Joker's Classic Mode also marks the first time in the series that Master Hand is fought anywhere other than Final Destination"
Doesn't DK fight the Hands on New Donk City? Granted it's in Omega form but so is Mementos when Joker fights him.
Also the music for the Master Hand fight is listed as 'Beneath the Mask' when it should be 'Our Beginning'

== Not sure if "leak" suits how we got Joker's render early. ==
His render was shown through a Best Buy ad, and if that's the case, then it's likely Nintendo already sent it to them and they had their permission, assuming Nintendo hasn't gone after it by now. I feel like it's more of an early tease. --[[User:BriefCasey795|BriefCasey795]] ([[User talk:BriefCasey795|talk]]) 16:17, March 31, 2019 (EDT)
:Considering that they haven't removed it yet, I have to agree. Though, it's worth noting that we technically don't know if this is his render (even though we all know it serves no other purpose :p) since it hasn't been directly confirmed and that's just the most reasonable assessment. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 17:00, March 31, 2019 (EDT)

They removed the render of joker of the page so maybe that makes it a real leak [[User:Thegameandwatch|Thegameandwatch]] ([[User talk:Thegameandwatch|talk]]) 22:38, April 1, 2019 (EDT)


== Joker Leaked Render ==
We will keep the current Joker character render and keep the 'leaked' render in the Gallery. The note in editing is there to prevent people from adding it as the new character picture, but we should still put the leaked render in the gallery at least until the official render is released. Editing in good faith.
Hopefully this puts an end to the edit war. [[User:SammyTFM|SammyTFM]] ([[User talk:SammyTFM|talk]]) 09:38, April 8, 2019 (EDT)
:Remember when ''Ultimate'' was leak? We were trying to avoid posting things related to it until the game "officially" released. Especially the renders. The fact that the image or content of the leaks are real does not matter as it was not "officially" released. Since Joker's image has not been "officially" revealed yet, it is better suited for the "leaks" page. However, adding it to both pages should wait until after Joker's next announcement/trailer or when he is available (by then, it will be confirmed to be a leak). Not only that, the page itself says not to add the "leaked" photo yet, and '''multiple''' people have been told this. Plus, the leak image is most likely going to be removed/replaced on the fighter page once his render's officially out. So please, be patience. The image will be added in due time, just not right now. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 00:13, April 11, 2019 (EDT)
::Nothing has been confirmed. All we saw was a render, with no word from Nintendo. The fact that Best Buy took it down quickly means nothing. It could very well be a fan render that the artist (or possibly Nintendo) pointed out to them, and they took it down. It could be real, it could not be. There's not enough conclusive evidence to support either way until release.
::Even so, we wouldn't use a leaked image until ''after Nintendo themselves'' officially releases it. [[User:Alex95|Alex95]] ([[User talk:Alex95|talk]]) 01:31, April 11, 2019 (EDT)

== Tag Line ==

He has one now ("Steals the Show"), but it still wasn't in the initial reveal. What do we do with the trivia line about it?
[[Special:Contributions/69.218.220.5|69.218.220.5]] 22:08, April 16, 2019 (EDT)
:Maybe something like "Joker is the first character to have their tagline revealed after their initial reveal"? [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 14:59, April 17, 2019 (EDT)
::Given that he has one now, and that Daisy and Inkling never had one, I say it should be removed from here, since it no longer applies.
:::Sign your comment, ya filthy animal! Jokes aside, I feel like we should keep the tagline. Mewtwo got its tagline in a trailer after its reveal, so it's only fair that Joker gets the same treatment. [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 15:06, April 17, 2019 (EDT)
::That said, he is the only character (in both Smash 4 and Ultimate) to have ''two'' reveal trailers - Mewtwo would count under this as well, if his reveal was actually like a trailer.  [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: cyan;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: pink;">'''the Springing Rurouni'''</span>]] 15:00, April 17, 2019 (EDT)

==Info Box==
Shouldn't we make the pictures in the information boxes skinnier? My poor boys are all stretched out. [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 14:59, April 17, 2019 (EDT)
:{{rollover|CTRL|Command if you're on a Mac|y}}+shift+R. That should fix it.  [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: cyan;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: pink;">'''the Springing Rurouni'''</span>]] 15:02, April 17, 2019 (EDT)
::Ok, thank you. [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 15:04, April 17, 2019 (EDT)

==On master hand being the boss of the route==
It is likely a reference to joker and master hand sharing the same voice actor in the English version <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:35.136.139.150|35.136.139.150]] ([[User talk:35.136.139.150|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/35.136.139.150|contribs]]) 00:16, April 18, 2019 (EDT)</small>
:While that is a possibility, it could be pure coincidence, seeing as how the majority of fighters battle Master Hand at the end of their route. Also, sign your comment. [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 12:49, April 18, 2019 (EDT)

== Separate Table ==

Should we make a separate table for the Arsene moves so it's not jumbled up with the normal Joker attacks? [[User:Pratikmii03|Pratikmii03]] ([[User talk:Pratikmii03|talk]]) 21:45, April 18, 2019 (EDT)Pratikmii03

== Joker's Star KO glitch ==

We know Joker has a glitch on his Star KO during the summoning of Arsene. Should we have a new page called "Joker Star KO glitch"? [[User:Derekblue1|Derekblue1]] ([[User talk:Derekblue1|talk]]) 03:51, May 26, 2019 (EDT)
:Not every (minor) glitch is deserving of a page. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 13:57, May 26, 2019 (EDT)

== Do we need to have the hitbox in update history???? ==

There is a separate hitbox page for Joker but why hitbox images on the update history for downward aerial gun? [[User:S3AHAWK|S3AHAWK]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|talk]]) 18:17, April 17, 2020 (EDT)
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@@ Line 102: / Line 102: @@
 There is a separate hitbox page for Joker but why hitbox images on the update history for downward aerial gun? [[User:S3AHAWK|S3AHAWK]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|talk]]) 18:17, April 17, 2020 (EDT)
-== victory poses ==
-The poses listed as left and right are switched from the ones listed on the [[Victory poses (SSBU)]] page. One of them should be corrected, I think. [[Special:Contributions/162.205.41.141|162.205.41.141]] 23:45, May 22, 2020 (EDT)
-== Unique Amiibo Properties ==
-In trivia, someone mentioned that Joker is one of TWO characters who have a unique function to their amiibo, alongside Mr. G&W's interchangeable pieces. I know for a fact this isn't true - Ice Climber's ice particles and Ridley's plasma shape existed long before Joker's amiibo. Is this fact really necessary?
-== Trivia: Joker's Event Tourney ==
-The trivia states that Joker never had his own Event Tourney (due to those not being available when Joker was released). I strongly believe [[Battle for Spirit Supremacy]] is meant to be his delayed event due to the following reasons:
-. Joker is one of the two main characters
-. It matches with Person'a playstyle of being empowered by characters
-. Terry also had a tourney that was not limited to characters, but just had specific rules.
-I previously deleted the statement that he didn't have any with that explanation, but it was deleted. Does anyone else think it matches up?
-[[User:Ma321|Ma321]] ([[User talk:Ma321|talk]]) 13:23, February 10, 2021 (EST)
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