Editing Talk:Helpless

I put Kirby and Ike on the list because they still retain the hitbox after their up-b.  Why was it deleted?
[[User:A1lion835|A1lion835]] ([[User talk:A1lion835|talk]]) 22:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)A1lion835
:Because they don't go Helpless. They retain their hitbox, it's totally different. - [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] ([[User talk:Gargomon251|talk]]) 20:03, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

why are you deleting Thunder from the list?? [[User:Majorabrawl|Majorabrawl]] ([[User talk:Majorabrawl|talk]]) 04:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
:Thunder doesn't cause Helpless. - [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] ([[User talk:Gargomon251|talk]]) 20:03, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Quote from article: "While helpless, characters cannot perform any action except fast-falling."

I believe Kirby and Ike '''can''' perform actions other than fast falling (AKA spiking, dealing damage).  That would mean they do not go into a fully helpless state.
[[User:A1lion835|A1lion835]] ([[User talk:A1lion835|talk]]) 22:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)A1lion835

Shouldn't Mario's image be on a black background as well, for consistency? 
[http://img.imgcake.com/MarioBlackpngez.png Like this. Yeah, I'm too lazy to register and upload it here]
And while we're at it, why are two of the images of Fox, and one of Mairo. Should they all be the same, or all be different? [[Special:Contributions/24.74.45.188|24.74.45.188]] 15:19, 19 December 2010 (EST)

== Helpless Air speeds ==

This doesn't look right, I never heard of "helpless air speed" being a thing, and the listed values don't look concrete at all. Can someone (Toomai?) verify if this is legit information or just bullshit someone added? <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 23:42, 15 September 2013 (EDT)
:That list has several problems; most importantly the numbers are meaningless. Junking it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Indescribable 00:08, 16 September 2013 (EDT)

== Helplessness ==

Shouldn't this be helplessness, to agree with the MoS? {{s|user|PikaSamus}} ([[User talk:PikaSamus|talk]]) [[File:PikaSamusSig.png|12px|link=Special:Contributions/PikaSamus|PikaSamus]] 10:02, 10 September 2014 (EDT)

==Melee Air Grabs==

Maybe I just missed it, but Melee's Air Grab attacks cause helplessness if they miss the ledge (Link, Y. Link, Samus)
Also, what is the most common term for that? Is it "Wall Grapple"? [[User:Serpent King|Serpent King]] ([[User talk:Serpent King|talk]]) 04:39, 18 March 2015 (EDT)

== Regarding Trivia ==

Shouldn't some of that trivia be actually listed on the article itself? I don't see a reason for some of it to be trivia if it is slightly vital information, but not so useless to be trivia. [[User:F0rZ3r0F0r|F0rZ3r0F0r]] 17:43, 10 April 2015 (EDT)
:Agreed. Meanwhile, some seem too character-specific. [[User:Berrenta|Berrenta]] ([[User talk:Berrenta|talk]]) 16:01, 13 May 2015 (EDT)
::True, true. I feel like such a thing should be somewhere else then, maybe their own page? [[User:F0rZ3r0F0r|F0rZ3r0F0r]] ([[User talk:F0rZ3r0F0r|talk]]) 22:22, 15 June 2015 (EDT)
:::(Yes, I've noticed the date.) I think having a section for "helpless-like states" or something like that would be useful; it would encompass trivia point 1, as well as Bowser Jr.'s car-less state and possibly some of the others. -[[User:Menshay|Menshay]] ([[User talk:Menshay|talk]]) 18:44, 25 September 2015 (EDT)
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 ::True, true. I feel like such a thing should be somewhere else then, maybe their own page? [[User:F0rZ3r0F0r|F0rZ3r0F0r]] ([[User talk:F0rZ3r0F0r|talk]]) 22:22, 15 June 2015 (EDT)
 :::(Yes, I've noticed the date.) I think having a section for "helpless-like states" or something like that would be useful; it would encompass trivia point 1, as well as Bowser Jr.'s car-less state and possibly some of the others. -[[User:Menshay|Menshay]] ([[User talk:Menshay|talk]]) 18:44, 25 September 2015 (EDT)
-== Snake helpless trivia ==
-Discuss here instead of warring, please >_> <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 20:53, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-:You want a discussion? Where does it show that Snake's helpless animation is without the black overlay? Because in-game, he's not helpless, and I'm almost certain it wouldn't show it with the black overlay if you applied it in-game without using PM. [[File:AidanzapunkSig1.png|20px]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''the Irish Dragon Warrior'''</span>]][[File:AidanzapunkSig2.png|20px]] 20:55, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-::In the above point it discusses hacking and if this point were true, it'd fit nicely underneath that one. [[User:MuteSpittah|MuteSpittah]] ([[User talk:MuteSpittah|talk]]) 20:57, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-:::It does seem far-fetched. Will need proof to re-add (note that PM is not proof). And yeah, I just don't want an edit war is all. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 20:58, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-::::My point isn't it wouldn't fit. My point is ''it's not true''. [[File:AidanzapunkSig1.png|20px]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''the Irish Dragon Warrior'''</span>]][[File:AidanzapunkSig2.png|20px]] 20:59, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-:::::There needs evidence, though. Then again, why don't any of the other trivia points have evidence? Am I supposed to take its word for it when it says that ROB throws Brawl into a tizzy when trying to find its helpless, and that each of the characters without a helpless has an unused helpless? [[User:MuteSpittah|MuteSpittah]] ([[User talk:MuteSpittah|talk]]) 21:02, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-::::::Technically (and, a bit ironically), Project M utilizes each and every one; ROB, on the other hand, has a custom one made in PM. [[File:AidanzapunkSig1.png|20px]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''the Irish Dragon Warrior'''</span>]][[File:AidanzapunkSig2.png|20px]] 21:04, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-:::::::Hm so Snake has his in PM unaltered? [[User:MuteSpittah|MuteSpittah]] ([[User talk:MuteSpittah|talk]]) 21:09, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-::::::It's a known fact (found by dataminers) that ROB has no helpless state. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 21:07, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-:::::::Kinda would like a source. [[User:Penro|'''Penro''']][[File:PenroDarkPitHead.png|19px]] [[File:PenroZSSHead.png|19px]] 21:09, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-Although there are several characters who cannot fall helpless in Brawl, R.O.B. was the only one to not have a helpless state animation present in Brawl's files. (source: [https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2rg0qu/here_is_a_list_of_factstrivia_about_project_m_in/]). Let me find something better than reddit. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 21:12, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-:It should be on CRF somewhere... [[File:AidanzapunkSig1.png|20px]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''the Irish Dragon Warrior'''</span>]][[File:AidanzapunkSig2.png|20px]] 21:14, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-::Hey so Snake can enter his previously-unused helpless in PM after airdodging, right? Or no? [[User:MuteSpittah|MuteSpittah]] ([[User talk:MuteSpittah|talk]]) 21:15, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-:::I think they changed the whole thing... <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 21:16, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-::::Well I'd like evidence for the unused helpless' in Brawl anyways. Can't find jack squat lol [[User:MuteSpittah|MuteSpittah]] ([[User talk:MuteSpittah|talk]]) 21:17, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-:::::Idk about the other characters, but I do know for certain that R.O.B. has no helpless state. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 21:22, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-::::::That's pretty certain lol. It's just I haven't found any evidence for the unused helpless for the others. Shame because this actually a pretty interesting trivia point. [[User:MuteSpittah|MuteSpittah]] ([[User talk:MuteSpittah|talk]]) 21:24, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-<small>(Reset indent) </small> I think what they did in PM was change the whole airdodge mechanic, and nothing with the helpless animation (sans ROB). And because characters like Snake and ZSS already ''have'' helpless animations, the animation is used because of the way the programming works. [[File:AidanzapunkSig1.png|20px]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''the Irish Dragon Warrior'''</span>]][[File:AidanzapunkSig2.png|20px]] 21:30, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-:Hm, ok. This is a weird situation - we have no evidence used for unused helpless yet we're keeping the point, yet for this one regarding Snake's we have no evidence used yet we're demanding proof to add it back in. Likely because the former is more believable, but it's a bit funny. [[User:MuteSpittah|MuteSpittah]] ([[User talk:MuteSpittah|talk]]) 21:33, 12 March 2016 (EST)
-::Now that I think about it, that ROB had no helpless and that all the others did was actually reported by PMDT somewhere... <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 21:37, 12 March 2016 (EST)
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