Editing Talk:Clone characters

==Why Lucas is a clone of Ness==
Lucas is a clone of Ness because Ness has been in the series longer and is a veteran while Lucas in a newcomer... [[User:Alexbarker116|Alexbarker116]] 05:50, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

==Ness and Lucas-- who's the semi-clone of whom?==
the article claims ness is a partial clone of lucas i want to know why people beleive this so before i go ahead and change it... [[User:Alexbarker116|Alexbarker116]] 06:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

:It should definitely be the other way, if not removed for being contentious. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] | [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] | [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]])

::I wasn't gonna change it myself, since someone seemed to have a plan for that, but IMO clones are in order of creation, not in order of revealing. I don't know what that meant by "clones according to brawl" or whatever. How do you clone something before the "original" exists? - [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] 09:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

:::The reason they were ordered the other way around was because in ''Brawl'', Marth and Ness aren't the primary characters anymore. They were replaced by Ike and Lucas, and were only re-included as their bonus ''Luigified'' clones. Just  because they were introduced in an other game doesn't make them the originals in this one. I mean, we don't consider Fox to be a clone of Falco in Melee, even though Falco's moveset was the original one in SSB, do we? Plus, according to the page's own definition only unlockables were to be considered clones. Nevertheless, if anyone decides to change it I'm not going to bother changing it back if so many people are that adamant on it being the other way around.--[[User:Bman87301|Bman87301]] 14:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

::::Marth was never a primary character and Ness was only primary in melee, therefore it shouldn't be any other way. A clone is the character that came second to the origional. [[User:Alexbarker116|Alexbarker116]] 20:50, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

:::::So would you also say that Fox in Melee should be considered Falco's clone since Falco's moveset was introduced on Fox first in SSB? Because really the only difference is the change of identity. Ike and Lucas are the headliners, and unlike Falco, are the main character's of their games to boot. And yes, Marth ''was'' the primary character in Brawl since Roy is considered his clone-- that makes Roy secondary. Look at it this way, Falco was the clone because his character was a lesser representative than Fox (who was the headliner). In Brawl, Marth and Ness are the lesser representatives and they have to be unlocked, doesn't that make them a little more like Falco and Roy who were considered the clones? --[[User:Bman87301|Bman87301]] 22:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

::::::Clones are defined by moveset. Falco was a clone because his moveset was based off of Fox's. So Lucas, if anything, iks a semi-clone of Ness simply because Ness had those attacks first. It has nothing to do with who appears first in the individual game. [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] 22:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

==Luigi as a clone in SSB==
Also make sure people stop taking luigi (ssb64) off there, he was 110% a clone initially. - [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] 09:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
:Luigi didn't fit the definition-- he had at least one (though I'm pretty sure there are more) different normal move, thus disqualifying him. I don't know how you can consider it being 110% when he doesn't fully fit the criteria (do the math, that's only 90% at best).--[[User:Bman87301|Bman87301]] 15:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
::What defines a clone again? In SSBM, Ganondorf had two or three unique moves, and he was still considered a clone... How does changing a single attack make any difference? Even Roy and Marth were more different than Mario and Luigi were in the original Smash.[[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] 22:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

===Vote to remove ''Luigi's SSB clone'' listing===
After thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion we should take a vote on this to decide whether or not Luigi's SSB clone listing should stay or go. I vote for it to go.--[[User:Bman87301|Bman87301]] 15:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
:It should go.--[[User:MegaMario9910|MegaMario9910]]
:: ''Stay''. And I want to see more than 5 votes. Can we get a forum thread or something to give a more broad range of opinions? - [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] 22:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
:::Would you like to count votes from "talk sections" on other pages? If so, I'd say you have already have another vote against you from [[talk:Luigification|Luigification]]. --[[User:Bman87301|Bman87301]] 22:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
::::I'm not sure he knows what a "direct clone" is either, really. And Luigification is a very common unofficial term. If Luigi was never a clone to begin with, why would they name the process of changing over time from being a clone to having more diverse differences after him? - [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] 23:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

:::::Actually, it seems you're the one who's confused about the meaning. The term is actually meant to describe any character who is NOT a "direct clone" but whose moveset is still based off someone else's moveset. A "Luigified" character doesn't have to previously be a "direct clone" in another game first to be considered "Luigified" in Brawl. The term doesn't come from Luigi being changed from being a clone (which he wasn't in the first place), it comes from the fact that he has always been close to being a clone, but was different enough not to count as one. So when someone uses the term "Luigified" they're describing a character who was "made to be like Luigi", in that they were only given partial clone aspects. By the way you've been using the term, characters like Lucas, Wolf, and Ike couldn't be semi-clones because they were never direct clones in the first place. The fact that they are semi-clones demonstrates your clear misconception of the term.--[[User:Bman87301|Bman87301]] 00:15, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

::::::Luigi was a clone in SSB he was later given different smashes and attacks in Melee, as well as a different B move, but he was a clone in SSB.--[[User:Fandangox|Fandangox]] 23:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Luigi has never fit into the clone category because he only shared variations of and only always had unique normal moves. The clones in Melee shared the both special and normal moves. Luigi has always been unique in that aspect prior to Brawl.--[[User:Bman87301|Bman87301]] 00:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Huh? SSB64 doesn't work that way. Mario was the original because before there was no other smash games. The rule of clones in SSB are slightly different than the other games because it was the first. Ever since Melee, clones were more or less copies of pre-existing characters. In SSB, no characters were pre-existing so the requirements were modified slightly so Luigi was a clone of Mario despite them both appearing chronologically at the same time, despite luigi being revealed second. And for the last time, in SSB64, Mario and Luigi had THE SAME ATTACKS besides the dash attack. LOOK: [[Luigi (SSB)]], [[Mario (SSB)]]. Luigification didn't exist until Melee, when many of Luigi's attacks were changed in animation if not effect. [[Luigi (SSBM)]] [[Mario (SSBM)]] if the movesets aren't there, check gamefaqs or the official guides.- [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] 00:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::I was going to wait until the very end of the day, but since it's now apparent you were confused about your original claim, and no one else has been debating this, there's no point in waiting, so I already removed your addition. ''Luigi was never a clone should not be listed, continuing to do so will be reported as vandalism''.
::::::::::You Know if you try to fake who you are and write this as if you werw a sysops IS vandalism. Dude he was a fricking clone in the first smashbros game, he wasnt in melee, but he was in SSB so just get over it, it is a proven fact, no an opinion.--[[User:Fandangox|Fandangox]] 02:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

::::::::::Wha?? I somehow faked being a sysop now? LOL! I guess I must have missed the memo that said only sysops can report vandalism. My bad... LOL--[[User:Bman87301|Bman87301]] 15:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

::::::::::Just because the few people debating agree with you doesn't mean the majority is always right. It's hardly fair to base this decision on only a handful of people without even waiting a whole day, much less enough time for anyone else to contribute. I've already proven that Luigi and Mario were completely clones in the first game, but you've totally ignored my citations. Once again, it doesn't matter if the damage or knockback is different, the fact is the moves themselves are identical: up smash is still a headbut for both, downsmash is a breakdance kick, A is still punch-punch-kick, and fireball is still fireball, despite moving slightly differently. Melee is the game that gave luigi unique standard attacks like the Kittenswipe and Poke attacks, but before that they were all but identical. - [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] 02:06, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::: Prima Guide of SSB64: '''Lugi, brother of mario, shares much with his sibling. His special moves, in fact, are almost identical. He's perhaps a bit more athletic than mario- he jumps a tad higher and moves with just a bit more speed- but beyond that, he's virtually a clone of Mario''' - [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] 02:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::::Listen, I haven't been ignoring your citations. You citations have simply not proven your case-- in a few instances they've kinda even hurt your case. You've been repeatedly demonstrating how Mario and Luigi are practically clones, but you haven't proven how Luigi fits into the category by adhering to the same standards the clones in Melee do. By the very definition listed on the page a "clone" shares ''both'' special and normal movesets. So Luigi doesn't fit. Granted, he's "virtually" a clone, but not a clone by the traditional definition used on the other characters. Don't get all bent out of shape about it, there are plenty of other places on this wiki that emphasize Mario and Luigi's similarities, it's not like that fact is being ignored, it's merely a matter of technical terminology, and in this case, in they way it's used, the term "clone" doesn't fit Luigi's SSB incarnation. Maybe I came off a little harsh last night, and probably shouldn't have edited it as soon as I did,and for that I apologize, I really wasn't trying to be a jackass about this, but you kept contradicting the terms and kept bringing up so much unrelated data that it was getting impossible to try explain anything to you. --[[User:Bman87301|Bman87301]] 15:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
==Ike/Marth and Toon Link==
As soon as I unlock these characters (getting th game at midnight) I will confirm once and for all whether or not they are inded clones, semi-clones, or neither. Once I can prove it myself, I will not allow any more rearranging of the list. As far as Toon Link, remember that Ganondorf had a few unique moves in Melee, but that didn't make him Luigified...I'll see just how different TL really is... - [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] 17:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Somehow I have a feeling just about everybody else on here is going to do the same thing for themselves tonight as well.--[[User:Bman87301|Bman87301]] 22:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
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